Oliver photos in 'Oxford Journal Illustrated' (with photo's)

Maz · Newbie

RE: Oliver photos in 'Oxford Journal Illustrated' (with photo's)

rene oliver · Senior Member

Hello All,

I get time to read all - but do `nowt`. Things are certainly moving at a good pace, I am pleased for all of you.

I might not get time to do this later on - so -

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL AND A HEALTHY, WEALTHY 2011

One step forward, 2 steps back, is called progress in Genealogy!!

Irene

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Hiya Jane,

Yes, a fast moving thread indeed, thanks to your input and having kicked off such an interesting topic in the first place.

You're reading my mind - I was wondering if Phillip died of his wounds / survived the war - I was lucky enough to receive a fair amount of information on the children of Philip and Minnie but having looked through those notes there wasn't a mention of Philip at all - then on the other hand I couldn't find him on the CWGC site either - so I wasn't sure what became of him.

As you say, he appears to have died in 1965 in Canada, and appears to have died single so presumably no children and no current day descendants - that's assuming they would have used the term Widowed if he had of been married and his wife had died before him.

Death Date:	20 Apr 1965
Death Place:	Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Name:	Philip Oliver
Gender:	Male
Age:	74y
Birth Date:	20 Aug 1890
Birthplace:	Woodstock, Oxford England
Marital Status:	Single
Spouse:
Father:	Philip Oliver
Mother:	Minnie Griffin
Indian Agency:
Indian Band/Tribe:
Film Number:	2033724
Digital Folder Number:	4479262
Image Number:	2393
British Columbia Archives Film Number:	B13271
Registration Number:	65 09 005337

That other find also seems to put the Headington A.E.Oliver outside of this family so nice to come to a conclusion on that on too.

I've been having a think about the 'C Oliver, Finstock' too.

It does seem to point to Charles Stephen Oliver, who is remembered on the War Memorial in Finstock and Irene's Great Uncle.

The photo is dated 16th August which fits with Charles' service dates, entered the war: 25th June 1915, died: 19th October 1917.

The photo also details 1st/4 Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry, which we know Charles served with - he did move to the 5th Battalion but that was in late summer 1917.

There is only one other Finstock Charles Oliver that I can find in 1911, and he was born in 1907, so too young.

So there are some clues that add up.

Okay, speak soon,
Shane

jane · Senior Member

The true identity of A.E. Oliver of Headington is revealed here , courtesy of Stephanie Jenkins, expert in Headington history. His father (Edward) was born in Newcastle upon Tyne, so there's probably no link to the Stonesfield/Finstock/Combe family.

jane · Senior Member

Hi again Shane

Phew! What a fast-moving thread!

When you've had a chance to look at that Canadian site, you will discover that there's one Philip Oliver (b.1881) and one Phillip Oliver (b.1890). In fact the older one turns out to be a Stonesfield Oliver too!!! From BMD records I think he is the son of Richard Barrett Oliver so I have added a note to the existing thread about Richard's line.

Going back to the younger Phil(l)ip, the FamilySearch Beta site has an index to British Columbia death registrations, which show that Philip Oliver (son of Philip Oliver and Minnie Griffin) died 20 April 1965 in Victoria, British Columbia, aged 74.

Jane

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Hi Linda, pleased you enjoyed the picture, it really is such brilliant quality too.
Thanks
Shane

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Hi Jane,

Brilliant work, that confirms nicely what I thought after seeing the picture, that the second P Oliver was the brother of Cyril, here's what made me think it, you can see family the resemblance can't you:

You're right also that we've been talking about this family branch before and here's how Philip and John (who emigrated to Canada) and Cyril (who lived in Stonesfield) fit together:

A number of descendents of Philip and Minnie actually attended the Oliver History Day, including a daughter on George (see above b.1895) and a daughter of Terry.

Thanks for the link to Canadian Soldiers of WW1 link, I'm off of to take a look at Phillips papers now!

Thanks again Jane,
Shane

Linda · Senior Member

I have never seen a photo of Uncle Bert (Albert Oliver) as a young man. What a lovely photo - he looks so young. Thanks Shane

jane · Senior Member

Thanks for posting those great photos, Shane.

Here's one candidate for the second P. Oliver, who is shown as of Stonesfield, but in the Canadian Contingent: Philip Oliver, son of Philip and Minnie Oliver of Stonesfield, was (like his namesake Philip Oliver of Combe, I believe) born in 1890. He and his brother John emigrated to Canada: they were in Nanaimo, British Columbia on the Canadian 1911 census, John aged 21 and Philip aged 20.

In the Canadian Soldiers of the First World War database you can see Philip's attestation papers, dated 23 September 1914. These confirm his birthplace as Stonesfield and next-of-kin as Philip Oliver. The original number on the form, 774, has been altered to 28664. There's a Battalion number on the second page, but I don't think the whole number is visible: the last digit is 6. I am studying an excellent website about Researching Canadian Soldiers of the First World War in the hope that I will be able to find out which regiment Philip was in so we can see if that matches the cap badge in the photo.

At the time of attestation, Philip was 5'5" tall, with dark complexion, grey eyes and black hair. The place of attestation was Val Cartier (in Quebec?).

From what I understand there are likely to be surviving service records, but these are mostly not online: you have to send off to Canada for them.

OK, now will go off to look for that badge....

Jane

Update added later:
A guide to Canadian regimental numbers shows that no. 28664 was among a block of numbers assigned to 1st Division, 16th Battalion.

The badge of the 16th Battalion (the Canadian Scottish) of the CEF is illustrated here : it is a St Andrew's cross with the number '16' on it, with a crown above and scroll below. It looks very much like the one in the photo of the second P. Oliver (and the fact that he's wearing a glengarry gives us another clue that he's in a Scottish regiment! Presumably he had a kilt on, too).

P.S. This Philip Oliver was mentioned in passing in a previous thread called 'Another newspaper cutting.'

-- Edited by jane on Saturday 11th of December 2010 05:23:35 PM

-- Edited by jane on Saturday 11th of December 2010 05:24:39 PM

-- Edited by jane on Saturday 11th of December 2010 05:31:03 PM

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Oliver photos in 'Oxford Journal Illustrated'

Maz · Newbie

Yes I too also remember going to Uncle Bert and Aunty Hilda and John farm at a cross roads on the Leafield road, My granddad used to visit for his annual holiday to help with the hay making MARIAN

Linda · Senior Member

Yes, Shane, you are right this Albert Oliver is on my branch. He was my Grandmothers brother, the youngest son of William Augustus and Elizabeth. He was born after the family photograph shown in the Picture Gallery. I knew him as Uncle Bert and they kept a smallholding on the crossroads between Leafield and Shipton. His son Alan is still alive and lives in Shipton. His Grandson, Adrian (also A. E. Oliver) lives in Finstock and was at the Family day (sitting next to Jim). I have so many happy memories of visiting them on the farm. Feeding the pigs, watching the cows milked and collecting those lovely warm eggs. My first cat came from the farm and I called him Oliver!

The other brothers you mention:

John (known as Jack) moved to Leicester and his granddaughter is also researching the Oliver family and we exchange notes regularly. His photo is in the Picture Gallery with his sister Elsie. He is also the little boy with the curly hair in the family group photo.

Bill moved to Coventry and this is Jim's father.

Syd moved to London and joined the Metropolitan Police - this is Marian's grandfather. He is the the young boy standing on the right in the family group photo.

Hope this places them all for you.

Bye - Linda

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Hi Jane,

I've actually been liaising with Wendy Pearce recently regarding my War Memorials Project and we had one of those 'everything is connected' moments not too long back.

Wendy has researched and written a number excellent articles including one on the men remembered on the Ascott-under-Wychwood War Memorial and of course the one on Albert.

Before I knew of the article, we were liaising on the Ascott-under-Wychwood War Memorial. Wendy had been browsing around my memorials website and she wrote telling me that by sheer coincidence she has spotted the picture of Philip Oliver and that he was someone else who had appeared in one of her articles. She then talked about how Philips brother Albert took over a smallholding in the Wychwoods after the War and that his son John lent her of photos and documents about this dad's service to help with an article for the Wychwoods Local History Journal.

Well, I of course wrote back immediately telling her that I had more than passing interest in 'the Oliver's' and directed her to this site for reference.

It all weaves together doesn't it!

I believe John died about two years ago but his brother Alan, who I presume must be at the super age of 82/83 is still alive.

Linda may well be in touch with him as this is down her branch.

We're very lucky to have people like Wendy helping to keep the memories and stories of these people alive aren't we.

Thanks,
Shane

jane · Senior Member

Thanks, Shane

Yes, we evidently have two men with the same name. It will be interesting to learn if they were related.

Having now checked through back copies of 'Wychwoods History' I can confirm that in the 2005 issue there was an article called 'One of Yesterday's Heroes - Albert Oliver MM'. The author, Wendy Pearse, has put together a fascinating article about Bert's experiences in the First World War and later. There's a lovely photo of him in uniform, aged 18. There is indeed a photo of a tractor too: Bert's son John is driving, and Bert is behind him, binding corn. There are photos of documents belonging to his sons, e.g. his paybook (open to show the will he made) and a letter from his commanding officer to his mother, saying he is about to recommend him for bravery in the field and expecting him to receive the MM or DCM.

The act for which he received his Military Medal was to drag a wounded officer away from the battlefield, through a cornfield. Sadly the officer (2nd Lieut Ross) died of his wounds.

One of Bert's war medals, the Victory Medal, was buried with his youngest son David, who died as a baby. There is a photo in the article of two other medals.

The article also explains exactly how and when the connection with Shipton-under-Wychwood began, with a scheme to make more land available for ex-servicemen to farm.

There are also mentions of the war-time service of Bert's brothers John (serving in Mesopotamia), Bill (in a Coventry munitions factory) and Syd (a policeman in London), besides Phil who gave his life, as detailed elsewhere on this site. All in all, an excellent piece of research by Wendy and well worth reading.

As I mentioned above, Bert's army service papers are available via Ancestry. They give all sorts of information, among them Bert's height (in March 1917, when he was 18 years and 5 months old, he was 5 feet 8 and five-eighths of an inch), his former occupation (head carter on a farm) and much more.

There don't seem to be any surviving papers for the other Albert Edward Oliver.

That's it for now!

Jane

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Hi Jane,

Umm, there must be two A.E.Olivers in that case!

Reason being the following:

The A.E.Oliver I was thinking about lived through WW1, married and had 3 children in Alan 1927, John 1929 and David 1933 an ddies in 1972.

In retrospect the 'High Street, Headington' location is a bit off the scent of the A.E.Oliver above to be honest.

So, where does the other A.E Oliver (if he is in fact part of the same Oliver family) fit in, I wonder - I'll take a look.

Thanks
Shane

jane · Senior Member

Quick lunch-time update:

Ancestry includes the army service records for Albert Edward Oliver of Combe (son of William Augustus), which show that he served in the Oxford Yeomanry Cyclists (and OBLI?) and then the Worcestershire Regiment, and survived the war. He was awarded the Military Medal (more on him later when I get a chance). Is he the Bert Oliver who was featured in a recent edition of the Wychwoods History Society journal? My hazy memory of the article is that there was a photo of a medal or medals, and also a photo of Bert (or his son?) on a tractor.

As his army papers show him being sent back to the UK for demobilization in 1919, he cannot be the Albert Edward Oliver killed at Vis-en-Artois two years earlier. Soldiers Died in the Great War shows that this Albert was a resident of Headington. It does not give his birthplace. But the Headington connection suggests he is the A.E. Oliver whose photo was in Oxford Journal Illustrated. (Of course we have to exclude the possibility that 'our' Albert also went to Headington, but from his army papers it is clear that he was still living in Combe when he enlisted).

Jane

jane · Senior Member

Hi again Shane

I see from CWGC that 32709 Pte Albert Edward Oliver of 5th Bn OBLI died on 3 May 1917 and is commemorated on the Arras Memorial. The Regimental Chronicle for 1916-17 shows that the 5th Battalion attacked 'Hillside Work' at Vis-en-Artois that day. Though they initially managed to get into New Trench, there was a 'strong enemy counter-attack' with 'very accurate and unceasing machine-gun fire' as well as sniping and 'Vane-bomb fire'. The 5th Bn was forced to retreat when their ammunition ran out.

Two officers and 22 NCOs and men were reported killed; another two officers and 96 NCOs and men were reported missing, later reported killed; and one officer and three NCOs who had been wounded and captured also died. Many others were wounded. Of the 12 officers and 523 NCOs and men of 5th Bn who had gone into action that day, 8 officers and 291 NCOs and men were either killed or wounded.

The Soldiers of Oxfordshire may be able to supply more info on Albert and the other men from OBLI. As for your mystery P. Oliver, I wonder if Philip Oliver's photo was republished later?

Oops, nearly 9.15 so I am late for work! I'd better go now....

Jane

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Hi Jane,

Fabulous new information, that's a very exciting find.

23 Dec 1914, P. Oliver ('local casualties')
I'm think this may well be Philip Oliver of Combe, son of Augustus and Elizabeth, and included in the new website article to the left 'Oliver's on War Memorials.

16 Aug. 1916, Pte C. Oliver, Finstock (1/4th Bn, OBLI)
This could be a very interesting new find for Irene and others. I think this could be Charles Stephen Oliver, of Finstock, who is also included in the new website article 'Oliver's on War Memorials and in more detail in the article 'A WW1 Hero remembered'

I think I remember asking before if a photo of Stephen existed and I think the answer was no, so this could be a very welcomed new peice of information.

13 Feb. 1918, Pte A.E. Oliver, High Street, Headington (OBLI)
I think this could be Albert Ernest/Edward Oliver possibly, youngest son of William Augustus and Elizabeth of Combe, the brother of Philip above.

I believe Albert is where the Shipton-under-wychwood Oliver link begins, and I have seen his and his wife Hilda's grave in Combe Church Graveyard. He won the Military Medal in WW1 I believe so ther could be more information on that perhaps aswell.

28 June 1916, Pte P. Oliver, Stonesfield
Can't place this one at the moment.

Very interesting!
Thanks
Shane

jane · Senior Member

Oliver photos in 'Oxford Journal Illustrated' (with photo's)