Certificates & Augustus (1824-1849) & Elizabeth Oliver (nee Buckingham), Hall Park, Providence Place

Linda · Senior Member

RE: Certificates & Augustus (1824-1849) & Elizabeth Oliver (nee Buckingham), Hall Park, Providence Place

Linda · Senior Member

This just gets better and better and the story has gone full circle as Oxford Prison was where this topic on certificates started.

So - Augustin was in Oxford Prison at the same time as Elizabeth Buckingham's brother. Perhaps this is how they met. I wonder if he knew him before meeting him in prison? Was he involved in the same crime?

I don't think we've heard the last of Augustin and his in laws (or should they be outlaws- oh! dear)

Thanks Jane

Bye for now - Linda

jane · Senior Member

I think this looks spookily like we are heading to one of those Everything Is Connected moments ....

Going from Linda's very plausible suggestion that 'Hensom' = Hensham = Ensham = Eynsham, and that we are looking for Eynsham Buckinghams, I checked the Eynsham parish registers and found a George and Fanny/Frances Buckingham having children baptised there: John b. & bapt. 1815, Henry b. & bapt 1817, Harriet b.1818 bapt 1822, Richard b & bapt 1822, Andrew b & bapt 1823, Mary Ann b. & bapt 1826, Elizabeth b 1828 bapt 1829, Sophia b & bapt 1831, Emma b & bapt 1833, George b & bapt 1835 and William b & bapt 1839. This would fit with the family in Marylebone in 1851 with parents George & Fanny and son George, and the daughter Elizabeth could well be the one who married Augustine/Augustus Oliver. [This is from a very quick scan of the parish registers, so I may have missed some.]

No sign of George Buckingham and family in 1841, but in Pug Lane, Eynsham there is a Fanny BUCK (45) with Mary (16), Betty (14), Sophia (11), Emma (8), George (5), William (3) and Frederick (3). Apart from Frederick these all fit with BUCKINGHAM baptisms mentioned above.

That BUCK/BUCKINGHAM thing rang a distant bell. In fact I had already come across this very same family before, when researching the names of people in an "indoor relief register" of Witney Union workhouse. It is the only known surviving register, covering 1839-1841, and is one of the treasures of Witney & District Museum's collection. It shows that Fanny, Mary Ann, Elizabeth, Sophia, Emma, George and William BUCK of Eynsham were all in Witney workhouse for part of 1839. They are given the class number 6, which I believe was used for the families of people who were in prison or had been transported.

This would explain why George BUCK(INGHAM) wasn't with his family in Eynsham in 1841. I happen to have the appropriate volume of Carol Richmond's series, "Banished!". It shows that George BUCKINGHAM (aged 48) was found guilty at the Oxfordshire Quarter Sessions on 1 July 1839 with having stolen coal at Eynsham Wharf. Having served time previously for an earlier offence, he was this time sentenced to 7 years' transportation.

Thanks to the recent addition to Ancestry of prison hulk records, I can see that George was sent to the 'Ganymede' prison hulk awaiting transportation. But like many other convicts sentenced to transportation, he never got further than the hulk. It seems he remained there until 1843, when he was pardoned.

It would have been while he was in prison or else when he was first on the hulks that his family were forced to go into Witney workhouse for a while.

NB also from "Banished!" I see that a 19 year old Andrew Buckingham (born in 'Hansome') was also sentenced to transportation, this time in 1841 at the Oxford City Sessions, for stealing a watch. Details of relatives include 'mother Fanny' so this could well be George's son and our Elizabeth's brother. He really was transported, to Van Diemen's Land, and Carol's book has much more about him as he kept getting into trouble there.

So it looks like Elizabeth was quite used to having criminals in the family. In fact the Olivers seem quite law abiding by comparison!

Jane

Linda · Senior Member

RE: Certificates

jane · Senior Member

Just a quick update: I have now located Providence Place on an 1870s map of London. It is a roughly rectangular court tucked in behind the buildings of Upper Lisson Street on one side and Burne Street on the other. The access seems to have been via a long, narrow passageway from Upper Lisson Street.

To see the map, go to the Old Maps website, type in the coordinates 527190 and 181790 in the "coords" boxes, and press "Go". Initially this will bring up the modern map, but if you click on the "1872 town plan" option on the right, an older map will gradually come into focus. Providence Place is labelled on this map (just north of Edgware Road station). It looks a rather grim place to grow up, not very providential at all.

Jane

-- Edited by jane on Sunday 5th of December 2010 08:09:56 PM

jane · Senior Member

Well I won't keep you in suspense any longer!

First I looked on the 1851 census, hoping to find a little George Oliver (or perhaps George Smith) with parents John & Elizabeth Smith in the Paddington area. There was nothing obvious. If George had died young, or wasn't with his mother, it seemed impossible to pick out the right John & Elizabeth Smith. My only hunch was that with a name like Buckingham, there seemed a good chance that Augustus's wife also had West Oxfordshire origins. So I looked for Oxfordshire-born Elizabeth Smiths, with husbands called John. This one seemed a possibility even though there's no sign of a son called George:

1851 census: 15 Providence Place, Marylebone Christchurch
John Smith, head, 28, labourer, born Harrow, Mdx
Elizabeth Smith, wife, 23, born Oxford
Ann Smith, dau., 4, born "Mary bon", Mdx
James Smith, son, 4 mo., born "Mary bon", Mdx
Henry Smith, brother, 19, born Harrow, Mdx

As yet there's nothing definite to tie this in with your Augustus. But then:

Burials at St Marylebone

Augustus Oliver, of Sutton Place, aged 23, buried 1 July 1849

Augustus Oliver, of Providence Place, aged 2 years, buried 29 Dec 1850

Surely this can't be a coincidence? It would all fit neatly into the family story we had so far: baby Augustus being born around 1848, surviving his father but then dying in Providence Place where we've found a John & Elizabeth Smith on the census.

Then I went back to the census, and found John & Elizabeth still in Providence Place in 1861, with children Ann (now 15 and a servant), James (11), George (6) and Henry (11 months) plus a lodger called James Pickett.

Armed with names of more of their children, I began looking for baptisms, which brings me to that entry in the Marylebone Christchurch baptism register I mentioned before. On 7 June 1857, three Smith children were baptised, all children of John & Elizabeth Smith of 14 Providence Place:
James (b. 5 Nov. 1850)
George (b. 3 Oct. 1855)
Frederick (b.1 Feb 1857)

But it was the line above these three that caught my attention, for on the same day, there was this baptism:

Ann, daughter of Augustus & Elizabeth Oliver, labourer, 14 Providence Place (born 16 Oct 1846)

That Ann was baptised on the same day as the Smith children and has the same address neatly proves that this is the right Smith family. From her date of birth she must have come along well before her parents' marriage. Presumably if there is a birth registration for her it would be under the name Buckingham? So that gives her three different surnames (Buckingham, Oliver and Smith) in less than five years. And they say modern families are complicated!

I think she is probably the Ann Oliver who married James Orridge in 1867 (St Martin in the Fields district) but the marriage doesn't seem to be in London Parish Registers on Ancestry. However, a second marriage does pop up there: Ann Orridge, widow, daughter of Augustus Oliver (deceased), married John Phillips at Finsbury in 1895. So we can add two more to her collection of surnames... and perhaps some hope of some more long-lost cousins for you.

I haven't been able to pinpoint Providence Place exactly on the map, but think it was in the part of Marylebone Christchurch that later became the separate parish of St Barnabas, Bell Street. See the Charles Booth poverty survey map. The accompanying survey notebook describes Providence Place as a court with access from Lisson Street, and classified as light to dark blue (ref. B358, pp.20-21).

It is quite amazing what info is available online now. In the olden days before there was an internet, this would probably have taken years of searching!

Jane

Linda · Senior Member

I can't wait Jane.

I haven't sent for any certificates yet as I have been thinking that it is likely that the other Augustus death is perhaps their son as there is also an Augustus birth in the December 1848 quarter which could be the first child after their marriage in April 1848.

I am hoping you are going to tell me this is the case.

What is excruciatingly tantalizing is the 7 June 1857 baptism. What could this be? This can't be anything to do with Augustus he's been dead for 8 years. Could it be another of our Oliver's? There do seem to be a lot of Oliver's in the Marylebone area. Is it something to do with Elizabeth and her new husband having a child? Don't think so as that wouldn't be an Oliver. Mmmmm.

I know I'm being lazy not going to the Library to look for myself but my excuse is I won't have the opportunity to go for ages and I just can't wait.......

Sitting on the edge of my seat ...bye for now - Linda

jane · Senior Member

Hello again Linda

Having sneaked a look at the Marylebone burials on Ancestry I would say that it would probably be worth buying the 1850 Augustus Oliver death certificate as well as the earlier one. Should you care to take a look at the Marylebone Christchurch baptism register for 7 June 1857 you may also learn something to your advantage . . .

Yours cryptically

Jane

P.S. If you'd like me to fill in the details of what I found there, let me know: I just didn't want to spoil your fun if you would rather do the searching yourself.

Linda · Senior Member

Fantastic Jane. Thank you so much. This has to be the right family. Their address on their marriage certificate was Hall Park and Elizabeth's father was George Buckingham.

There are two entries on FREEBMD for the death of Augustus Oliver, one in the June 1849 quarter and one in the December 1850 quarter and both in Marylebone. I did think that one of these might be for Augustin and so I tried to find an Elizabeth Oliver - widow- on the 1851 census. Little did I know that she had already remarried and changed her name! What a story. Sad but with a happy ending I hope.

Thanks to you I am now confident in 'plumping' for the June 1849 certificate as this fits in perfectly and will send for a copy. I'll let you know what story this tells of poor Augustin.

I can now sign Augustin off my search list - although I still need to find out what crime he committed back in 1841.

..... and welcome to George. I'm looking forward to finding out all about him.

Thanks again Jane - you are a star.

Bye - Linda

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Dazzlingly brilliant Jane, honestly, amazing, amazing, amazing!

I'd imagine Linda must be boucing about the place right now, that sounds like a major break through!

Wow, I'm on my kneews, my hands are raised and I'm bowing back and forth

Thanks
Shane

jane · Senior Member

Hi Linda

I thought I would just test out one possible theory for Augustus Oliver's disappearance from census records etc.: perhaps he died and Elizabeth got remarried? With the London Parish Registers on Ancestry you can include the name of the father(s) of bride and/or groom in the search. So I searched to see if there was any match for an Elizabeth Oliver whose father's surname was Buckingham.

Et voila !

Elizabeth Oliver, full age, widow, of Hall Park, daughter of George Buckingham, labourer, married John Smith, full age, bachelor, labourer, of Hall Park, son of George Smith, bricklayer, on 4(?) November 1849, at St Mary's, Paddington Green by banns. Bride and groom both made their marks. The witnesses were George Rose (signed) and Emma Richards (x). (The actual date is rather faint but I think it says 4th Nov.)

So it looks like Augustus had died soon after the marriage. I see from FreeBMD that the death of an Augustus Oliver was registered in the Marylebone district in the second quarter of 1849. Perhaps he is yours? It may be worth risking the money for a death certificate to find out. . .

I also checked the London baptisms database and see that George, son of Augustus & Elizabeth Oliver, was baptised 5 November 1849 at St Marylebone. The father's occupation is given as labourer and the child's birthdate as 26 October 1849. If the dates are right, the baby was born just a few days before his mother remarried!

Hope this provides some new leads for you

Jane

P.S. If you come down to the library you can print out images of the scanned registers (or save them on a memory stick)

Linda · Senior Member

Thanks Jane. I'll take a look at these on Ancestry next time I go to the Library.

Bye - Linda

jane · Senior Member

Hi Linda and Shane

Just a quick clarification: the records in the 'London Parish Registers' bit of Ancestry are scans of Church of England parish registers, mostly ones deposited at London Metropolitan Archives. Post-1837 marriage registers contain exactly the same info you'd get if you sent off for a marriage certificate, so it is well worth checking out the site if you have ancestors who married in London in this period. Quite a wide geographical area is covered, not just central London. Many London marriages are not included though: non-conformist ones and register office ones being the main exceptions.

The 'London Parish Registers' also includes baptism registers and burial registers but these will not tell you everything that birth or death certificates would do. Also note that the burial records are for churches/churchyards, not for the big public cemeteries which were the last resting place for the majority of Londoners from Victorian times onwards. Having said that, I did find in the database the (20th c.) burials of my great-great-grandparents Thomas and Elizabeth Brown in a churchyard in Plumstead so there are exceptions!

Hope this helps

Jane

Linda · Senior Member

Thanks Shane and I agree with what you say about using or losing local sources.

I know the Centre of Oxfordshire Studies will eventually be incorporated into the Record Office at St. Lukes which I will find less convenient. The Centre of Oxfordshire Studies always seems more accessible - you just go in, do whatever searches you want and there's plenty of room to sit. I always feel confined and lost at St. Lukes even though they are very helpful and friendly.

But, yes, we are lucky to have such rich resources on our doorstep.

Bye - Linda

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Hi Linda

Downloadable certificates via ancestry

This was specifically in the context of London records, not records generally.

It was in respect of the London marriage of Augustin Oliver in 1848.

I believe the area that I used whilst in the Witney library to see a copy of my Great Grandparents marriage certificate from 1915 may have been'London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 (provided in Association with the London Metropolitan Archives and Guildhall Library Manuscripts)'?

I think FindmyPast and Ancestry have some similar searches but some different searches too, I subscribe to both but have used Ancestry for longer so Ancestry is my go to tool.

Local RO Certificate Copies vs GRO copies

From my own experience local RO's across the country do offer different types of service, some may provide photocopies/scans, some may provide typed copies, some may provide handwritten copies.

It's probably best to ask what a specific office does so that you can decline if that format isn't satisfactory.

I think from my own experince of Oxford they have been typed.

The GRO has presumably heavily invested money into digitalising its records, maybe representing the inflated costs as they're looking for return on that digitalising investment.

I guess the main downsides to a handwritten or typed version rather than scan or photocopy are:
1 - For marriage certs you don't see the signatures or marks,
2 - You're at the mercy of the RO staff making mistakes in the transcription

Will all local RO's ever go digital?, I don't know.

My issue/point isn't so much about the cost, I suppose it's more about 'heritage' having a profile on the county councils agenda. In this specific scenario if people don't use local RO's service and there is no demand for the service, then I guess the service will cease and the GRO will be peoples only option, so an end to the benefits that local ROs do offer (extreme i know, but just for arguments sake!):

- quick turn around
- help with specifics for locating your records if there are oddities or anomalies
- call backs with questions/queries if what it found doesn't look quite right
- sensible pricing
yadda yadda yadda ..........

I think we're pretty lucky in Oxfordshire with the records and access we have, Oxfordshire Studies, Oxford Records Office etc, I know from travelling around not all counties are so good.

All personal preference at the end of the day I guess.

Thanks,
Shane

Linda · Senior Member

Certificates & Augustus (1824-1849) & Elizabeth Oliver (nee Buckingham), Hall Park, Providence Place