olly4577 wrote:

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He Married a Ellen Oliver (nee Arkless) and had two(2) children Maria M E Oliver 1925 In Tynemouth 2nd child Leslie L J Oliver Who sadly died in 1927. 

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Hello Peter and welcome back to the messageboard

I'm not related to the Olivers myself, but love the challenge of unravelling complicated family histories. The story of Louis Jason Oliver certainly isn't straightforward, is it? I've been looking back at all of what's been posted so far, both here and on the WW2Talk forum, to try to iron out the discrepancies.

The Maria M. E. Oliver whose birth you've found (who married a Mr Powell) was Kevin's aunt. She and her four surviving brothers appear with their mother Ellen in a photograph Kevin posted earlier on this thread - not dated but I'd guess around 1970?

As you've discovered, only Maria (born 1925) and the next child, Leslie have births registered with mother's maiden name ARKLESS. The younger four children's births were registered with a slightly different spelling of their mother's maiden name, ARCKLESS:

 - Benjamin J. Oliver, birth registered last quarter of 1928, Tynemouth district

 - George R. Oliver, last quarter of 1929, Tynemouth district

 - Ronald L. Oliver, first quarter of 1933, Tynemouth district

 - Louis J. Oliver, last quarter of 1938, Northumberland South district

and these are the four who appear with their mother Ellen and their sister Maria in Kevin's photo.

From the 1922 marriage certificate which Kevin has also posted, Ellen Arckless had the middle name Dixon and was 18 at the time of the marriage (so born about 1904). That fits with her being the Ellen D. Oliver who is on the 1939 Register in the Seaton Valley Urban District, Northumberland. Her date of birth is given as 12 January 1904; she was married, but her husband is not included in the list. There were five others with her in the household: the last three are George R. (b.1929), Ronald L. (b.1932) and Louis J. (b.1938). The first two, whose details can't be seen at the moment, are probably Maria and Benjamin.

The death of 73 year old Ellen Dixon Oliver was registered in the Haringey district in the third quarter of 1977. The death index gives her date of birth as 12 January 1904 which matches the date in the 1939 Register. Taking all these things together, I am sure that this Ellen Dixon Oliver who died in 1977 is the Ellen Dixon Arckless/Arkless who was your father's first wife. 

Regarding the Ellen Oliver who died in 1930 in the South Shields district - who you thought might be his first wife - I think she must be a different person. There are a lot of Olivers in that part of the country and I can't find anything in newspapers or online burial records to confirm who she was, so you'd need to get her death certificate to find out more. 

I hope this helps

Best wishes

Jane

Hi Peter and Mary

Firstly, welcome to the message board here and thank you for joining and posting, especially nice to see those two photographs and be able to put faces to Lewis and Lydia.

I can certainly appreciate how some of the new information that you will have discovered about your family and family history here will have come as somewhat of a shock, I understand the sensitivity and how direct the link is to you personally. What I can say is that all the information is correct to the very best of our knowledge both that from peoples personal recollections and that from credible genealogical sources.

I've been looking into my own Oliver family line and the wider Oliver family branches for around 10 years now and have certainly come learn (if hadn't known before) that families can be the most complicated of all things, and all too often individuals, whole branches or family happening seemingly blanked out from history, no doubt many many reasons for why this might be and as you say lets not forget much of this particular family story is over a period that included two World Wars.

I hope you're able to connect with Kevin and Adam and perhaps other descendants of Jason Snr in the future also.

Also, just in case you hadn't picked it up, the message board here is part of a wider Oliver Family History website, www.oliverfamilyhistory.co.uk, where you might be interested to read various stories and discoveries about our shared Oliver ancestors - particularly nice that you still carry the name forwards today.

I noted that you have arrived here having started to collate your family tree, if there is anything that we can help with please just say.

Hope to speak again,

Shane

Hi Kevin Adam

                            Was informed by a relation Mary who stated she was doing this for her sister in law.

 My name is Peter Oliver Youngest son of Lewis Jason Oliver born1899.

 Trying to do a family tree and was shocked at what was put on this posts. If its right I cant believe it, but it happens in the past over 2 wars.

I've added two photos of my father and mother The first is from when he was in the forces, second was when he married my mother in 1942. they had 4 children Sister Pat, Brothers Robert, Derek and my self.

He was in the first ww1 but when they found out he was underage he was discharge, once he became of age he re-joined  possible in 1918 and completed 26 years, discharged in 1944??.

Can only say what has been passed down with time to me from older people that new my father better than me, He passed away when I was only 12 (1964) What I was told was that his father was and mother split up and he stayed with his father and his sister went with his mother, ?? (this I'm still trying to find out) Please take a look at the photos to see if some where down the line we are related. I have other photos of when he was in the WW2 one Christmas time.

The dad I new was kind and would never ever leave his family of children behind.

The two army numbers 602510 & 70811 are my fathers I have his first WW! medals, my sister been the oldest has asked at the end of June about his WW2 medals still awaiting HMF reply.  

Hope to hear from you soon.

Peter olivert   

-- Edited by olly4577 on Saturday 22nd of July 2017 04:28:30 PM

Hi Adam 

We are quite closely related as 2nd cousins.

In 1922 , Lewis did declare his father Jason on his marriage certificate, so at this stage in his life, he was acknowledging his father. This was well after WW1

and as he was born in 1899 he would have only been able to take part in WW1 at the end 1917/1918 when he was 18 unless he lied about his age.  I know that in 1922 he declared himself as a soldier, so if he did take part in WW1 and was shell shocked or suffered post-traumatic stress then I could not image that he would still be a soldier in 1922 ? 

In 1922 he declared himself and his father as being Leslie Lewis and Leslie Jason Oliver on his marriage certificate. I believe this may be

due to confirmation names as I believe they were methodists although there may have been other reasons. We know we are talking about the same Lewis because

his war records declared his wife as Ellen Dixon Archless which was my nan.

Lewis's father Jason as you are aware was married to Maud Frith and they had two children Lewis in 1899 and Albert in 1903 who died in 1911.

On Alberts death certificate Jason is named father but interestingly he is declared deceased by Maud.

Whilst Jason was married to Maud, it's clear he met and started an affair with your gt.grandmother Margarett Ruffel as they had their first child together in 1902 and married in 1905.

I have looked high and low for the divorce records which I am told are accurate for this period and find no divorce with Maud so I believe Jason was a bigamist and had not divorced Maud before marrying Margaret Ruffel. The same can be said for Maud as she was also remarried to a James Want. It appears when Jason and Maud  separated Jason took Lewis with him and Maud Albert .

At the recent Oliver reunion, I discovered that initially Jason left Lewis with a nurse maid and promised to pay her a weekly amount for looking after his son.  Sadly Jason did not pay for his son which ended up with Jason being taken to court and eventually serving time in prison for abandonment of his son Lewis. Lewis ended up in the Workhouse.  Some time later he was reunited with his father and step mum Margaret as the census shows them living together.

With this experience I could image that the relationship with his father Jason may not have been a positive one. He may have felt he was the odd child out as the step son within Jason's new family and who knows may not have been made welcome ?

On our side of the family, Lewis did the same and abandoned his family of 5 around 1934. When my father was alive, his father Lewis was never spoken about because of this and he and consequently my brothers had no contact with Jason.

I agree Jason looks a happy character in his clip[ and I hope the assault record I posted and his abandonment of Lewis does not blemish your mums and nan's view of Jason , that was not my intention.  Maybe at some time we could meet up if you are ever on the isle of wight do let me know.

regards

Kevin

Hi Shane

Many thanks, this is what I was expecting that Adam belonged to the second wife Margaret Ruffel.

As you know Jason and Maud separated , it looks like our fellow Jason was a bit of a thug and assaulted his wife

Maud.  The baby must be my Grandfather Lewis.  This was in January 1900, so Lewis was 1 ish although they did go on to 

have a second child Albert in 1903 before they finally split.

See enclosed:-

Hi Adam and Shane

Firstly a thank you for the Jason clip, this is the first time I have seen my Gt.Grandfather.  I immediately saw a resemblance , sharing a nose that turns up at the end !

I would like to understand the link between Adams family and mine. Clearly Adam's family kept in contact with Jason and family whereas we lost contact when Jason's son Lewis deserted his family with Ellen Dixon.

I assume Adams family are from Jason's second marriage to Margaret Ruffell who raised my Grandfather Lewis as her step son ?  

Would love to know.

To provide some more photo's I enclose a picture of my parent's wedding in 1953. This is George Robert Oliver son of Lewis and my mother Barbara Joan Atkinson. You can see my father's brother Louis as the best man and their mother Ellen.

regards

Kevin

p.s. Many thanks for the event Shane , was very interesting to meet up with long lost cousins.  Can you send me an invite to view the tree as discussed ?

I'm totally with you there Jane, it really is a great bit of footage isn't it, moving images of an Oliver born in 1871, wow!

I love the mistletoe under his cap and how he appears to stand to attention for a picture - harking back to his military day no doubt - and of course, these medals below are his medals!

Fantastic, thanks Adam!

Shane

Hi all,

With help from Shane we've hopefully cracked the video clip problem. So to clarify, this is Jason Oliver (1871-1965) filmed in Tottenham around Christmas time of 1963 or 1964.

Hi Adam,

I'm not able to see the video myself unfortunately. If there's anything I can do to help let me know, not sure what format your source video is (.avi, mp4. .mov etc), but I have a youtube account and I can upload it as a private (i.e. not public and generally accessible) video via there and post here is you wished - if I can help just let me know. Would also be really great to show the video at the Oliver Family History Day next Sunday too!

Thanks,
Shane

Just correcting my last post , the certificate is of  their  2nd child who died age 0.

Kevin

Hi Kevin and thank you for sharing the certificates: below are some of my musings in case they are helpful.

Albert's death certificate is intriguing, with the claim that his father was dead (which we know is not true). Did Maud know full well that Jason was still alive? Perhaps when she married James Want she said she was a widow . . . and then she would have had to keep up the lie about Jason being dead when she was registering Albert's death. 

Alternatively perhaps she just hadn't heard from Jason at all for several years and so by 1911 was assuming he was dead (you could do that after 7 years without contact, and from the newspaper reports it seems to have been around 1903/4 that they went their separate ways). It would be interesting to see what she said on her 2nd marriage certificate: if she said then that she was a widow, that would be a definite lie. If she and Jason had divorced, then I think there'd be a record on Ancestry (for that period as far as I remember, the records are very good). Also I don't think there'd be any need for Maud to lie about Jason in 1911 if they'd divorced.   

How curious that Louis Jason Oliver just called himself plain Leslie Oliver when he married Ellen. I've certainly come across confirmation names being added, as you say, but the fact that he's dropped the 'Louis Jason' bit altogether makes me wonder what was going on. Are there more skeletons in the cupboard that he was trying to cover up? 

Now this may or may not be connected but there is a First World War medal roll card for an L. Oliver who was in several different regiments. A note at the top of the card says 'See Louis J. 602510. 8 Lond. R. Ident(?).'. There's also a note 'No further trace'. Then on the back of the card it says an application was made for the medals on 5.10.27 and there's an address, 7 Shotton Street, Hartford Colliery, Cramlington, Northumberland. Does that address ring any bells with you? It would be in the Tynemouth registration district, I think, where the births of Louis & Ellen's children were registered, but maybe there was another Louis Oliver in that area?

There's a separate medal roll card for the Louis J. Oliver of the 18th London Regiment (no. 602510) which also has a Royal Scots number (70811). This one relates to the Victory & British War medals but says 'Forfeited for misconduct'. On the back there's a reference to 'lists of forfeitures of medals' dated 30.11.21.  

There are quite a few reference numbers on the cards and I'm sure a military expert would be able to read a lot more into them and advise you on where to go next with research. You could try asking on the Great War Forum where there are some exceedingly knowledgeable military folk.

It is interesting to see that Louis Jason Oliver's death certificate names his widow as L.M. Oliver: that would certainly fit with the marriage to Lydia M. Hodgson being the right one. If so, that would probably mean that the man marrying Mollie Scott was Louis Joseph Oliver but it's difficult to be certain without getting the certificate. I think I may have identified a (married) daughter of Louis & Lydia on electoral rolls: I'll send you details privately later but it's time for a cup of tea now!

Hi Jane

I had some time and checked over the records I have.  I enclose what I think is the death certificate of Louis Jason Oliver in 1964 declaring that he was only 57.  This was registered by his wife with what looks like an initial "L" so maybe Lydia ?

I also re-discovered that Louis Jason also used the forename Leslie (as did his father) I think this is his confirmation name as I am aware they were Methodists and as part of the Catholic church I am aware people do take on new names after being confirmed. What is surprising is  that he used it on his marriage certificate to Ellen Dixon Arckless also enclosed.  We know that he did not use Leslie when he registered his army details which you provided Jane showing the wife as Ellen Dixon but we do see the use of Lewis and Louis spellings. 

Shane Bywaters wrote:

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These two death registration entries exist in the online records, not sure if you know the births dates for Benjamin and Ronald to confirm these are indeed your Uncles?

Name: Benjamin Jason Oliver
Birth Date: 11 Dec 1928
Date of Registration: May 2006
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Luton

Name: Ronald Leslie Oliver
Birth Date: 23 Dec 1932
Date of Registration: Jun 2002
Age at Death: 69
Registration district: Enfield

---

The 1939 Register gives a date of birth of 23/12/1932 for Kevin's uncle Ronald Leslie Oliver, which confirms that he is the one who died in 2002. Unfortunately Benjamin Jason Oliver's details are not visible on the 1939 Register (he's probably one of the ones whose record is still officially closed) but his birth was registered in the last quarter of 1928 which would fit with him being the one who died in 2006. 

Shane Bywaters wrote:

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There are a couple of marriages that look probable also, wonder if these also look good to your knowledge?

Benjamin J Oliver
m. 1954 Betty V Head

Ronald Leslie Oliver
m. 1957, Shirley J Brown

---

The 1965 electoral register has Ellen D., Louis J., Frances V., Ronald L. and Shirley J. Oliver all at 169 Northumberland Park, N17. Relationships aren't stated in electoral registers but this would appear to be Ellen with two of her sons and their wives . . . and confirmation that the 1957 marriage found by Shane is the correct one. 

I have also been trying to find out what happened to Ellen's husband, Louis Jason Oliver senior (b.1899) after he abandoned his family. A Louis J. Oliver married in the Birmingham district in 1939, to Mollie J. Scott. You'd need to get the marriage certificate to check what the 'J' stood for, but I suspect he is a Louis Joseph Oliver who is listed in Edgbaston electoral registers earlier in the 1930s (with Joseph Adolphus Oliver and Florence Maud Mary Oliver, maybe his parents?).  He also listed with them on the 1939 Register, which gives his d.o.b. as 5 September 1913. A Louis Joseph Oliver with this same date of birth died in the Great Yarmouth district in 2002 aged 88. 

Another one who caught my eye is the Louis J. Oliver who married Lydia M. Hodgson in the Durham E. district in 1942. Again the marriage certificate might be informative (though if this is Kevin's Louis and he was still officially married to Ellen then he might have been economical with the truth when he married, in order to avoid suspicion of bigamy.) There are some possible birth registrations for children to this couple in the north-east, but the combination of names Oliver/Hodgson is too common to be certain which children belong to whom. What is interesting though is that a Louis J. and Lydia M. Oliver later turn up in electoral rolls in the Birmingham area (1950, 1955).

Sooooooo, it is tempting to think that he might be the Louis J. Oliver whose death was registered in the Birmingham district in the first quarter of 1964. The $64,000 question though is, is he Louis Jason Oliver? His age would be quite a bit out - he is shown as 57 when we'd expect around 65 - but perhaps whoever registered his death didn't know his exact age. 

More questions than answers I'm afraid! But that's family history for you . . . 

Hi Jane

Yes my Grandmother Ellen (who kept  her Geordie accent despite many years of living in London)  must have had a  tough life bringing up 5 small children alone in Tottenham after Louis did a runner in 38.

I recall how much respect my father gave her.   She did not take the death of my father; the first of her children to die in 1977 well and she passed away the same year.

Her youngest son ,I assume named after his father Louis died in 1989 (his wife who was in hospital when he died, passed away the very next day! , their one and only son Karl, died of a motorcycle accident in 1979 at the age of 19)

My aunt Marie Ellen Oliver (Powell married name) died in 1996 but I have linked up on ancestry with the wife of her son John as she looks into her family "Mercer".  I don't know whether Benjamin or Ronald are still with us, so if anyone knows of their whereabouts or condition I would like to know.

I also found the article on Solomon & Joshua (my 5th Great Uncle according to ancestry) , its sad that Joshua died for steeling some turkeys in 1829 but our criminal system was somewhat harder then than now. But discovering these stories makes great reading and discussion with existing family members. 

I note from Shane's response that another new member Adam also recently joined who appears a close relative through Peggy Oliver my Great Aunt so hi to Adam !  

many thanks to all.

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Really pleased to welcome you here, always great to link up with new descendants of the Stonesfield Oliver's, and particularly nice in your case that you still carry the name.

That's is sad to read of Louis abandoning the family, though on the converse you've posted a lovely picture and Ellen and her 5 children are all looking very happy and very much a family, thank you for posting and sharing - the date of the picture is early 1970's I'm guessing?

You'll see in the thread that 'Adam' also recently joined, you're quite close relatives, your Grandfather Louis and Adams Grandmother Peggy were both children of Jason Jr 1871-1965, with some 28 years age difference between them.

I hope the messageboard here and the wider website might help give you a bit more information on your Oliver line back from Louis and some of the stories from across the family - look forward to sharing more.

Thanks again for joining and posting.

Shane

In case any other descendants from this line come a-googling, I've tried to fill in a bit about what's known of the children of Jason Oliver by Maud Frith and Margaret J. Ruffell.  It will be interesting to see which ones you're in contact with already, Adam. Please do say if you have any additions/corrections to the list!

A. Children of Jason Oliver & Maud Frith

1. Louis/Lewis Jason Oliver b.1899

Some trees on Ancestry have him marrying Ellen Dixon Arkless or Arckless in 1922. His Royal Artillery attestation papers on Findmypast* confirm his wife's name and the date of marriage.  (The GRO marriage index lists Ellen's spouse as Leslie Oliver, just to confuse things.) Likely children are Maria M.E. (b.1925), Leslie L.J. (birth and death registered in 1927), Benjamin Jason (b.1928), George Robert (b.1929), Ronald Leslie (b.1932) and Louis J. (b.1938) all born in the Tynemouth area. Ellen seems to be on her own with the children on the 1939 Register. Some online trees suggest that her husband remarried and later died in Birmingham but there is another Louis J. Oliver with Birmingham connections so this needs to be investigated further. Another possibility is that he is the Louis J. Oliver who married Lydia M. Hodgson in the Durham East district in 1942.

*He was a labourer when he attested at Mill Hill on 25.10.21 as Lewis OLLIVER to serve in the Regular Army. Discharged in 1933. Later (1937) re-enlisted in the Territorial force as Louis Jason Oliver and was discharged 1945.  

2(?). Albert Arthur Oliver (1903-1911)

Birth registered in the Eton district in Q2 1903; may therefore have been Jason's son but it is possible he was someone else's child. With mother and stepfather James Want in Basingstoke on 1911 census. Died in 1911 aged 8.

B. Children of Jason Oliver & Margaret Jane Ruffell [who married in 1905]

3 (maybe) Henry William Ruffell (born in 1900 some 5 years before Margaret Jane Ruffell married Jason Oliver). From 1911 census he would appear to be son of Jason Oliver but he later reverted to calling himself Ruffell so perhaps did not see himself as part of the Oliver family.  Married Catherine M. Ringham in 1924; one known child, a daughter Emelia S. Ruffell. Henry W. Ruffell died in 1941 aged 41.

4(?). maybe another child born and died before 1911 (see 1911 census); position in family and whether born before or after marriage of Jason to Margaret Ruffell is not clear.

5. Jason William Oliver a.k.a. William Jason Oliver b.1905

Apparently called William/Bill to distinguish him from his father. Born in 1905 (in Chipping Norton according to 1911 census; registered in Stow on the Wold district). Baptised at Westcote, Gloucs, in January 1906. Probably the Jason W. Oliver who married Lilian M. Pettifer. Died in 1968 aged 62.

6. Katie Margaret Oliver b.1908

married John T. DURKIN

died 1990 aged 82, Haringey district

7. Annie Beatrice Oliver b. 1910

married Thomas G. THATCHER

died 1994 aged 84, Haringey district

8. Arthur F. Oliver birth registered Q1 1915

maybe Arthur Frederick Oliver who died in the Bedford district in 1997 aged 82 (d.o.b. given as 26 February 1915)

9. George J. Oliver b.1918

possibly the George John Oliver who died in the Enfield district in 2004 aged 86 (d.o.b. given as 13 July 1918).

10. Ivy A(lice) Oliver b.1923

m. Arthur WACEY. Together with three sons they emigrated to Australia in 1958. According to the Ryerson Index, Ivy Alice Wacey died in 2012 aged 88.

11. Peggy W. Oliver b.1927

married Michael R. MALONEY.

12. Edward T. Oliver b.1929

listed at 35 Willoughby Lane in 1950 electoral register but with 'S' before his name; according to the blurb this means "service voter", so I suppose he was in the forces then (doing his National Service?)

Some online trees say he is the Edward Thomas Oliver who died 1997 in the Petersfield district.

NB the strong connection with Willoughby Lane N17 (see electoral registers on Ancestry). In the 1946 electoral register, for example, William J. (=Jason W.) and Lilian M. Oliver were at no. 29 Willoughby Lane; Jason & Margaret J. Oliver and the Durkins were at no. 31; and the Thatchers and Waceys were at no. 35.

Adam wrote:

---

We are still in contact with some of Jason's other grandchildren but he had so many children (11 in total I believe) over such a long time that some ties have been lost.

---

Hi Adam,

You mentioned that you believe Jason had 11 children in total, it would really good to reconcile some of what we had captured previously with your understanding if possible please.

Soo, here are 9 .... 

Jason Oliver b.1871 d.1965

m. Maud Frith
  Lewis Jason Oliver  b.1899
  Albert Arthur Oliver  b.1903

m. Margaret Jane Ruffell

  Henry William Ruffell b.1900
  Katie Margaret Oliver b.1908
  Annie Beatrice Oliver b.1910
  George J Oliver  b.1918
  Ivy A Oliver   b.1923
  Peggy W Oliver  b.1927
  Edward T Oliver  b.1929

Then 10, Jane mentioned a Jason W. Oliver per the 1939 register, I can't immediately pick him up in the birth records just now though.

Then 11, I see mention of an Arthur Frederick Oliver born about 1915 in various online trees, again I can't immediately pick him up in the birth records just now.

Is this your 11 I wonder, or do you have a different 11???

Thanks in advance!

Shane 

Nearly forgot, no I haven't seen his service papers. I have a copy of his WW1 medal card somewhere which I'd happily share with you.

I will certainly try and get a look at his medals at some point. I wonder how on earth they got there.

Cheers,

Adam

Hi Adam,

I echo Jane's welcome, thanks for taking the time to join us and comment here, really pleased you found us!

Depending on the route google took to get here you might not have noticed that the messageboard is actually part of a wider Oliver Family History website, http://www.oliverfamilyhistory.co.uk/, if you've not yet seen the wider site you might be interested to take a look, over the years it's become quite a nice little repository of many things Oliver.

It's always great to locate new living descendants from our earlier Oliver generations, and it's nice to get grey areas clarified or gaps filled etc when people like yourself can share family information and stories that you know of almost first hand as opposed to through records, which certainly for the 20th century records can be tough to locate or get access to at times.

Jason Jr certainly has quite a story through his 93 years doesn't he, quite remarkable and a wonderful splash of colour within the tree, and that's quite something to hear of your ciné film, I really think that could well be earliest footage of any Oliver, amazing! Similarly, if there are any photographs of Jason (and wider family) that you would be happy to share to put along side those medals and stories, that would also be a pleasure to see him.

I assume you have already seen Jason's Attestation/Service Papers? Also, should you be interested in seeing his Boer War medals I guess that is something that could be arranged through the folks at the 'Soldiers of Oxfordshire Trust'.

For now, thanks again for joining us here Adam, looking forward to this family story unfolding further.

Shane

Hi Jane,

Fascinating reading below. The Jason Oliver Jr in your research is my great grandfather. His only surviving child is my nan, Peggy, who turned 89 this week.

A lot of what you mention below regarding his marriages and children matches with what I have been told. For example, Margaret Ruffle's first son was acknowledged as being his. 

I remember one story that Louis Oliver had been reported as killed in WW1 but that he was still seen around Tottenham after that but refused to acknowlege who he was. I asked my nan if she was sure it was her brother and she said "as much as you'd know your brother if you saw him in the street". Of course my nan was born after WW1 so she must have been told who he was by her dad, Jason.

I can't believe his Boer war medals have been found. I assumed if he had any they'd have been passed down to one of his older sons. We are still in contact with some of Jason's other grandchildren but he had so many children (11 in total I believe) over such a long time that some ties have been lost. He also fought in WW1 with the Ox and Bucks and apparently tried signing up for WW2 but was politely declined due to age.

He ended up in a care home and I'm told married for a third time whilst there! He would often still nip out for a pint but one cold day the care home staff refused to give him his coat as they said it was too cold for him to go out. He went anyway and caught pneumonia. If he'd have just stayed in for a cup of tea he might still be with us!

My grandad had a cine camera in the early 60s and I actually have colour footage of Jason Oliver in his 90s walking down Tottenham High Road and into a pub. Could he be the earliest Oliver caught on video?

Thanks for all the great research you and the other members have put into this site. If I can help with anything else please let me know.

Adam

Linda wrote:

---

This is becoming very intriguing - can't wait for the next instalment. 

Linda

---

 Here you are Linda! :)

I think I can now reveal the identity of Queenie Oliver, who was in Charlbury in 1911, shown as 3 year old visitor in the household of widowed Sarah Rose Ann Oliver.

Queenie's birthplace is given as Clewer on that census but I had no luck finding a matching birth registration in that area. I then began to widen out the search to Queenie Olivers born in other areas. Eventually I found this one: Rosa Queenie Oliver, birth registered in the first quarter of 1908 in the Farnham district.

No sign of a death registration before 1911 and I couldn't find a Rosa Oliver of that age in 1911 so was she known by her middle name? 

Next I turned to Surrey baptisms on Ancestry in case there was a baptism for her. There wasn't, but another baptism that jumped out at me was George William Alfred Oliver, baptised in 1906 at Aldershot Holy Trinity, son of Heron George & Rosa Maud Oliver. Aldershot's not far from Farnham,  I recognised the name of Heron George as one of 'our' Olivers, and with a wife Rosa it sounds plausible that they could have a daughter Rosa. 

Then looking for Heron on the 1911 census I found him in Staffordshire, with wife Maud and two sons aged 5 and 1  . . . but they said they'd had three children, all still alive! Rosa Queenie would fit very nicely in the gap between the two boys. And from the 1911 census Heron's wife Maud was born in Windsor so I thought we must be getting warm.

The clincher came when I googled for Heron George Oliver and found that there was a thread about him right here . . . and that his parents were none other than George & Sarah Oliver! So little (Rosa) Queenie was staying with her granny Sarah in Charlbury in 1911.

Rosa Q. Oliver (also indexed as Queenie R. Oliver) went on to marry George Stolber in 1928 in the Lambeth district. She died in 1985. 

Just reporting possible sightings of a couple of Jason & Joyce's elusive children.

William Oliver (born about 1861) may have moved to Naunton, Gloucestershire: there is a 38 year old William Oliver, shepherd, in Naunton in 1901, who says he was born in Woodstock. He has a wife Emma, older than him and born in Ely. What looks like the same couple was still in Naunton in 1911, William is now 55 (!), a farm labourer and now gives Stonesfield as his birthplace. Emma still gives a Cambridgeshire birthplace (Stretham, which is in the Ely registration district). However, both William and Emma now say they are single, and Emma's surname is not Oliver but Coy.

So perhaps they were fibbing in 1901, and had never married, or perhaps they had married but were not sure of the legality of the marriage (maybe one of them had married before?) so chose to tell the 1911 enumerator that they were single. 

Re. Caroline Oliver (born about 1867) there is a death registration in the Windsor district in 1937 for a 70 year old Caroline Oliver, which would fit nicely with our Caroline's estimated birthdate. But if that's her, where has she been hiding since 1891?

Still looking for clues as to what became of George and Arthur . . .  

Aha Jane, brilliant, then in that case I am able to add a little something about Jason Jr.

The folks over at 'Soldiers of Oxfordshire Trust' have these two medals in their collection:

And here are the associated details:

Object name: Boer War medals
Description: Queens South Africa Medal 1899 and Kings South Africa Medal 1901 awarded to Pte J. Oliver.
Material: silver
Dimensions diameter: 36 mm
Date made: 19th century
Associated person: Pte J. Oliver 2751
Associated organization: Oxfordshire Light Infantry
Associated event: The Boer War

So we have just confirmed that these medals belong to our Jason Jr! - fantastic - I might ask SOFO how they came in their possession etc.

Thanks! Shane

Hi Jane,

Wow, thanks so much for finding, collating and posting all of this this, so much to take in and absorb!

Just a couple of immediate observations,

Re:

1891 (31 March) - Jason Oliver, a labourer aged 18 years and 7 months, born in Stonesfield, joined the Oxfordshire Militia at Cowley Barracks. He was 5 feet 2 [3/4] inches tall and weighed 111 lb. Fresh complexion, grey eyes, light brown hair. Continued in militia until 1894. (Though his age is a year out, this must surely be our "our" Jason for he gives his address as c/o Mr E. Scarrott, Stonesfield)

Do you know from the records that you used if the army service number was 2751 perhaps?

Re:

4. Caroline Oliver, birth registered Q1 1867. Probably the mother of Charles Ernest Oliver (b.1889)* Last definite sighting of Caroline is in Stonesfield in 1891. One tree on Ancestry claims that she married a George Adams but I think that was a different younger Caroline. So what happened to Jason's daughter Caroline?

I agree with you here, I myself have George Adams marrying a Caroline Oliver who is the daughter of Jesse Oliver, rather than this daughter of Jason.

As for Charles Ernest Oliver, I had previously wondered why he is not remembered on the Stonesfield War Memorial, perhaps he is on a Berkshire War Memorial somewhere as the family were no longer in Stonesfield ... would be nice to think he is remembered somewhere.

Thanks, Shane