Thanks Shane.  I'll try the link you have suggested.  I do know some of the postings.

Linda

Sorry Shane, I'm going to be a bit cheeky and ask a non Oliver question about these Coastguard records.  Do they go back to the early 19th century.  I have an 'in-law' Gt.Gt.Gt. Grandfather in the Coastguard around 1841.

Thanks - Linda

Re. Alec and the coastguard

Some coastguard records are available to download free (as very large PDFs) from Documents Online, as part of TNA's 'Digital Microfilm' service. Most of the records are too early for you, but these two files might be of interest:

ADM 175/109
New Coastguard Force: Chief Officers service 1919-1941

ADM 175/110
New Coastguard Force: Chief Officers service 1941-1947

Click on 'View digital image', then 'Add to Shopping' (don't worry, this doesn't mean you have to pay!) and 'Checkout'.  I've no idea what sort of info you get: the files are too huge for me to try downloading. It may be best to start with the second file, since it only covers 6 years and so isn't as big.

It may also be worth contacting the Elie & Earlsferry History Society.

Morning Jane,

I couldn't agree more with what you're saying; 'the more we find out, the more questions there seem to be to answer' and 'You'd think that with 7 children there would be some descendants of Ambrose & Emily around to answer some of these questions'.

Across all the online family tree programs I've searched I've not really located anyone who has taken Ambrose and the family any further than 1891, I think the Ireland thing (that you cracked) has probably stumped a few people - it certainly feels like we're researching something new and undiscovered to me.

Yes, Gilbert in Charlestown & Holmbush is certainly a puzzle to isn't, Charlestown & Holmbush is of course in Cornwall but as you say without knowing the absolute connection between Gilbert and Charlestown & Holmbush you could easily see it as one of those close but not quite right name and detail matches - something else to get to the bottom of!

Thanks
Shane

You have been busy, Shane!  But the more you find out, the more questions there seem to be to answer: why was Edwin on the St Neot's war memorial?  Who is the mysterious Mrs Runnall?  What happened to Ambrose's wife? etc. etc. ...

Here's another question too: why is Gilbert Oliver on the memorial for Charlestown & Holmbush?  At least he is according to the Roll of Honour website. Having looked at a clearer photo of the memorial on Flickr, I see that it just says "Oliver G.", so it's possible this is a case of mistaken identity.

You'd think that with 7 children there would be some descendants of Ambrose & Emily around to answer some of these questions.

P.S. thank you for those interesting links about map-making.  I look forward to having the time to read them properly.

Hello again,

Back on the Cornwall trail of Ambrose himself, well, he is proving a much trickier task to trace.

Both of the CWGC records, Gilbert in 1917 and Edwin in 1939, seem to imply that Ambrose is living in Cornwall, however, looking in the same 1920's and 1930's Kelly's Directories that we found Edwin, Ambrose is not listed at all (in either trade or residential).

Ambrose' wife Emily Jane had died by 1917 and I've no evidence yet that Edwin ever married, so perhaps Ambrose and Edwin lived at the same house - I guess it was the residential home owner rather than the senior member of the household that would be recorded?

The next trace I have of Ambrose is really in 1958 where we find and entry in the Cornish Times with regards to his death.

This is useful in that it gives us an address and introduces a Mrs Runnells into the equation, but not alot else, no names of family members, where the funeral was held, where he is buried etc - and having now toured the huge church yard of Liskeard Parish Church and the public cemetery in Liskeard and the small churchyard in St Neot I've not found any gravestones in either of these.

In terms of 10 Lower Lux Street, sadly the developers have beat us to the spot and there is no 10 Lower Lux Street anymore, just a relatively new set of apartments as seen to the left of this picture looking up the steep steet.



Thanks however to the kind people of the Liskeard and District Museum, possibly one of just a few remaining views of the houses where Ambrose lived at the end of his life can been seen in the following old photograph.



The photograph above is copyright of the Liskeard and District Museum and used here with their kind permission.

The photograph below may be of the plot where Ambrose is buried as the graves in Liskeard Parish Churchyard are in quite a strict date order however the church have no plot maps earlier than 1960 so it is difficult to be certain.



As always, the search goes on - its all a good reason for a day or two in Cornwall at minimum.

Thanks,
Shane

Hi Jane,

Oh wow, great finds there, thank you - I think that last link you posted may have gone a bit sqiffy, I think this may have been the link though uboat.net?

I've actually been off trying to dig up a little extra information myself in the last couple days and took a little jaunt to the South West.

I visited Liskeard Library and interrogated their local studies area.

I'm pleased to report that after a fair bit of hunting through books I was able to locate the village where Edwin is remembered on a war memorial, however, why he is remembered in that village is a little bit of a mystery.

The village is St Neot and I found the information is a book titled 'A Glace over the Shoulder; St Neot from the 18th to the late 20th Century'. The book is written by Jill Thomas who lives in St Neot and is who is also involved in the local history group. I've now spoken to Jill but unfortunately there hasn't been any detailed research on the men named on the memorial, so no pictures or anything like that sadly.

So, here is the war memorial and a couple of pictures from the village:

1. The war memorial is positioned next to the village hall



2. Here we see the names of those men lost in WW2



3. St Neot Village Hall



4. St Neot Parish Church

 

5. A view across St Neot from the Churchyard



Whilst its no great drama in any way I do wonder why Edwin is remembered in St Neot as having looked in three or four Kellys Directories through the 1920's and 1930's, and as late a 1939, I believe that Edwin was Living in Liskeard (6 or 7 miles from St Neot) and at the same address in all directories.



Liskeard has its own war memorials both on the parish church and a public one in the town centre with no mention of Edwin, so presumably there is some connection with St Neot yet to be discovered.

Either way, lovely to locate village based memorial to Edwin.

Thanks,
Shane

Hi Shane

I've been having a read of Ordnance Survey maps: a concise guide for historians, by Richard Oliver (wonder if he's any relation?!). It gives the dates of survey for the County Series 1:2500 maps.  Here are the dates for the counties where Ambrose & Emily's first four children were born:

Brecon: initial survey partly done in 1874-6 and the remainder in 1884-8
Dorset: initial survey mostly done 1885-8
Lancashire: initial general resurvey mostly done 1888-93
Cumberland: first revision done in 1897-1900

The book doesn't give dates for the mapping of Ireland at this scale, but I believe the initial surveys were done there later than in England/Wales.  I see from Alan Godfrey's map catalogue that some of the County Down maps are dated 1901, which fits nicely with when Ambrose was there.

The survival of staff records doesn't look too good: many records were lost in the bombing of Southampton, I believe.  The National Archives' guide to Ordnance Survey records explains that some of those involved in the surveying were military men (Royal Engineers) while others were 'civil assistants'.  I found one reference to Ambrose in the London Gazette, 3 May 1907 which shows that he came into the latter category:

[Certificates issued] under Clause VII of the Order in Council of 4th June 1870:
Board of Agriculture and Fisheries: Established Civil Assistants on the Ordnance Survey, Edward Hamilton Goddard, Ambrose David Oliver.

(from www.london-gazette.co.uk)

Interestingly, in the 1911 English census transcription for Ambrose's son William, he is shown as a surveyor in the Royal Engineers, so it looks like he followed in his father's footsteps.

I was looking at a 25" map earlier today.  They're extremely detailed.  I've no idea at all about how the surveys were done, so am looking forward to discovering more about it.  You never know where the family history trail is going to lead, do you?

So, with this fabulous new 1901 and 1911 information I think the outline tree now looks something like this:



Thanks Jane, the three Ireland born children did all appear nice and efficiently in the Irish Civil Registrations Database.

I also have a possibly lead for further information re: Alec Oliver - someone has an Alec Oliver in thier online tree with a daughter named 'Emily Jane Greenway Oliver' - must be him surely!

If the facts are to be belived, and there are not that many about Alec in the persons tree, he emigrated to the US in the mid 1940s - more digging required.

Thanks,
Shane

You might find it productive to search the Irish civil registration indexes on the new version of the FamilySearch website, for birth registrations of the younger children.

With a job like surveyor for the O.S., Ambrose would have moved around a great deal. On a hunch I tried the 1911 Irish census . . .

. . . and found this.  Looks like you need to make room for some more children in the family tree!

Jane

P.S. here is the other side of the form, showing a partial address