Migration to London -mid/late 19th Century

Shane Bywaters · Guru

RE: Migration to London -mid/late 19th Century

Linda · Senior Member

Hello Shane

Just read through my last post and have a correction to make under Hannah: I have typed Edward Croxton - it should of course be Edward Jones. Are you able to amend my text?

Linda

Linda · Senior Member

Hello Shane - here's the information I have to date -

Apart from my branch (Mary) the research I have done on the children and grandchildren of James and Margaret is very sparse. This is what I have:

They lived in Finstock but there was no Church there at that time so events were registered at Charlbury church.

Ann bapt. 4 Feb 1821 at Charlbury. Not checked for death. There is an Ann Oliver married to Daniel Cooper in 1847 but on the 1851 census for Chadlington she gives her birthplace as Shipton so I have ruled her out.

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Mary bapt. 11 Aug 1822 at Charlbury. Died 6 August 1894 Stonesfield. I have her death certificate but have never been able to find her grave at Stonesfield.

Banns were read on 23,30 June, 7 July 1850 at Charlbury for her marriage to William Townsend but no marriage took place. A mystery.

Her children were:

- Augustus also known as William Augustus born on 30 April 1855 in Chipping Norton workhouse, bapt. 3 Aug 1856 at Ramsden. Died 26 April 1918 buried at Combe. Married Elizabeth Whitley from Hanborough on 16 Nov 1878 at Stonesfield. Have birth, marriage and death certificates. No name of father on his birth certificate but William Townsend (decd) named as father on his marriage certificate.

- Mary Ann Margaret also known as Pol born Chipping Norton workhouse 12 Dec 1857. Have been unable to trace her death but think it was probably in Stonesfield. Married George Swinford from Filkins in 1883. Have birth certificate - no name of father.

- Maria Selina born Ramsden 14 October 1859. Died 1891 buried at Stonesfield. Married Gabriel Griffin 29 April 1882 in Stonesfield. Have birth certificate - no name of father - and marriage certificate - no name of father.

(William Townsend was named at the Petty sessions by Mary as being father to Augustus and he had to pay maintenance but I've never found that she named him as father to Mary Ann and Maria.)

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Augustin bapt. 9 April 1824 at Charlbury. Died 1849 London. Married Elizabeth Buckingham in 1848. He was in Oxford prison in 1841. I've not been able to find out the reason. Have his death certificate.

(Jane researched and posted a huge amount of information about this family on the messageboard)

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William bapt 5 Feb 1826 and died when only a few months old.

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Fanny bapt 20 Jan 1828 at Charlbury. Died in London 1919. Married Thomas Croxton 23 April 1849.

Lived in Ramsden and moved to Streatham sometime between the 1871 and 1881 census. I've done no research on their children.

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Edwin - born 1831? There is a great deal of confusion here. I have not been able to find a baptism and have never researched him properly. Is he the Edward that married Caroline Panting? I think the Parish marriage records gives his father's name as James so maybe he is. There was Harriett bapt. on 30 Dec 1831 at Charlbury but there is no trace of her on any of the following census returns. There is a death record for a Harriett in 1845 but I have not checked this out. I wonder if they were twins or was the name written incorrectly in the Parish records?

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Maria - born 1832? I have not found a baptism for Maria and apart from the census I have not done any research into her at all so I don't know if she is the Maria that married William Willoughby in 1856.

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Hannah bapt. 25 Dec 1833 in Charlbury. Married Edward Jones in 1857. Lived in Finstock but moved to Streatham sometime between the 1871 and 1881 census. She is listed as a widow on the 1911 census living in a house as 'a boarder' together with her son William but I notice that there is also an Edward Jones born 1833 in Witney, Oxon former general labourer on the 1911 census living in the Lambeth Workhouse so perhaps she didn't like to admit he was in the workhouse. Not sure of her death date but there is a Hannah Jones buried in Norwood Cemetry 14 March 1913 age 80 - address: Home for the Incurables, Streatham. No nothing about her children.

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James bapt. 16 Sept 1836. Died 4 June 1855. I have his death certificate. He was a railway labouer and died of Typhus.

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And then there is the UNKNOWN/RICHARD born 1841.His father could not have been James as he died several years earlier so may not even be an Oliver! Was his mother Margaret? I have often thought perhaps Mary was his mother. I have found no baptism or birth record. He could have been registered under another name and perhaps baptised under another name. It seems likely that he is the one which keeps popping up either as William Alfred or Alfred. A real mystery this one.

Hope this helps. Please let me know if you are able resolve some of the many mysteries on this very shaky branch of the Oliver tree.

Linda (not bad typing for one hand)

Linda · Senior Member

Hello Shane

You've cheered me up by giving me something to do! I've had an operation on my hand as I managed to detach ligaments off two of my fingers (long story) and my hand will be strapped up for about eight weeks and physio after that for a while.. Fortunately, it's my right hand and I'm left handed but I'm still very restricted in what I am able to do. I am a bit slow typing with one hand but getting used to it. Looking through my family history stuff is something I can with one hand so I'll go through your list and get back to you. It might take a couple of days but it will give me a break from reading, watching telly and listening to the radio all day.

Bye for now -Linda

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Hi Linda,

I've been taking a look at my notes around the children and families that follow James and Margaret, and per some of the discussion below it certainly gets complicated in places with missing baptisms and changes of names etc - though it was really helpful to recall a lot of this good information below added by you and Jane a few years back now.

I just wondered if I could check my understanding against yours of what's what and who's who's from the research to date?, really in respect to the children and grandchildren of James and Margaret, please.

So, here goes:

Ann Oliver b.1821 Finstock, d.1838 Finstock
Did not marry

Mary Oliver b.1822 Finstock, d.1894 Finstock(?)
Did not marry but had 3 children:
- Augustus b.1855 d.1918
- Mary Ann b.1858 d.?
- Maria Selina b.1859 d.1891

Augustus/Augustin Oliver b.1824 Finstock, d.1849 Lisson Grove, London
Married Elizabeth Buckingham in 1848 and had 2 children:
- Ann b.1846
- Augustus b.1848 d.1950

William Oliver b.1826 Finstock, d.1826 Finstock
Did not marry

Fanny Oliver b.1828 Finstock, d.1919 Wandsworth, Surrey
Married Thomas Croxton in 1849 and had 7 children
- Esther Ann Croxton b.1850 Ramsden
- James Croxton b.1852 Ramsden
- Fanny Croxton b.1853 Ramsden
- William Croxton b.1856 Ramsden
- Thomas Croxton b.1859 Ramsden
- Riley Croxton b.1860 Ramsden
- Delilah Croxton b.1870 Ramsden

Edward/Edwin Oliver b.1830 Finstock, d.1901
Married Caroline Panting at Ramsden in 1856 and had 8 children
- Mary Ann b.1857/d.1857 Ramsden
- Benjamin b.1859/d.1859 Ramsden
- Rosetta Oliver b.1860 Westminster St Margaret
- Benjamin Edward Oliver b.1862 Ramsden
- Annie Selina Oliver b.1867 Hammersmith
- James Stephen Oliver b.1870 Notting Hill
- Sarah Margaret Oliver b.1874 Notting Hill
- John Albert Oliver b. 1876 Notting Hill

Maria Oliver b.abt 1832 Finstock d.1900
Married William Willoughby at Ramsden in 1856 and had 2 children
- Mary Ann Willoughby b. 1857 Tasmania, Australia
- Albert Edward Willoughby b. 1862 Chewton, Victoria, Australia

Maria then Married Joseph Hanratty (Born Bohemia, Austria) in 1882 in London

Hannah Oliver b.abt 1833 Finstock d.1913 Lambeth
Married Edward Jones in 1857 and had 9 children
Edwin b.1859 Finstock
Joseph b.1862 Finstock
Sidney b.1864 Finstock
Maria b.1866 Finstock
Flora b.1870 Finstock
Eli b.1872 Finstock
William b.1874 Finstock
Lily b.1875
Annie b.1878

James Oliver b.1835 Finstock, d.1855 Finstock
Did not marry

Then there is also Unknown (b.1841)/Richard (1851 census)/William Alfred (1861 census) and Alfred (1881 census), possibly another son of Mary?

A finally there is mention of a Harriet, is this another case of name change, are Harriet and Maria actually the same person?

Would appreciate any confirmations or corrections you might be able to make please!

Thanks

Shane

Linda · Senior Member

Hello Jane

Yes, the name 'Richard' only appears on the 1851 census - the 1841 census doesn't state a name - so it is possible that this is a mistake. Could William Albert spoken with a Finstock accent sound like Richard? Maybe.

I can find no trace of a Richard Oliver anywhere else only Richard Barrett Oliver and we have already discounted him. I think I need to do a bit more digging on this one but this Willliam Alfred certainly fits in and if he's not 'Richard' where has he come from?

Thank you for the information on Maria. Strange going to Australia and then coming back. Quite a journey in those days.

Thanks to your help I've now accumulated a lot of information about the children of James and Margaret Oliver. It's great to have these stories behind the names and dates and it's great that more and more stories are coming to light.

Bye for now - Linda

jane · Senior Member

Hi Linda

I see that on the 1841 census in Margaret Oliver's household the youngest member of the family (a 14 day old boy) had not yet been named. So this doesn't help with the problem of whether he was Richard or William Alfred.

One thing that might back up your suggestion that Richard and (William) Alfred could be the same person is that we have not yet found both of them on the same census. In 1851 there is a 9 year old Richard Oliver, but in 1861 we have William Alfred (20). If they were two distinct people, where was William in 1851 and where was Richard in 1861?

There don't seem to be baptisms for either of them, and in the early 1840s so soon after civil registration had been introduced, many births were still going unregistered. But it might be worth cross-checking all the Oliver births in the Chipping Norton registration district in this period to make sure everyone is accounted for.

Have you found references to Richard anywhere except the 1851 census? It is possible that the census enumerator made a mistake and the child really was called Alfred all along...

I agree about the difficulties of Edwin/Edward's birthdate appearing to clash with Harriet's baptism. But perhaps Harriet was not an infant when baptised? Or else Edward/Edwin's age on the census is slightly out?

I forgot to mention before that when Edward married at Ramsden, the witnesses were Maria Oliver and William Willoughby, who also were the next couple to marry at Ramsden (the same year I think). From the 1881 census it looks as if they must have emigrated soon afterwards, for a daughter was born in Van Diemen's Land and a son in Australia. The Australian birth index on Ancestry confirms the details, even giving Maria's maiden name as Oliver so that we can be sure these are the right Willoughbys. In 1881 Maria (by then a widow) was at 47 Newton Street, London, with her two adult children. She was a grocer and they greengrocers. So we can add Maria to the list of the Finstock Olivers who moved to London (albeit via Australia this time!).

Time to do some last-minute Christmas shopping now, so I'm off to brave the ice-rink outside.

Jane

Linda · Senior Member

Hello Jane

I haven't had chance to look at the film you recommended yet. I did borrow a video from the Central Library a couple of years ago which sounds as if it might be the same film or similar and it was really good so I'm looking forward to seeing it.

Very interesting the information you have given about other Oliver's moving to London.

With regard to your comments on Edward Oliver possibly being Edwin - I think you may be on the right track. There are lots of things which don't add up with some of the children of James and Margaret Oliver. I've done research on Mary born 1822, Fanny born 1828, Hannah born 1833 and James born 1836 as these were the easy ones. Augustin born 1824 we have just done.

I have also found baptism records for:

Ann 1821

William 1826

Harriet 1831

Then on the 1841 census living with Margaret three other names appear - Edwin aged 10, Maria aged 8 and Richard aged 11 days.

I haven't done any research on these yet except for Richard. As you say he can't have been the son of James as he died in 1836. There has been debate among my cousins also doing the same research that he could be Mary's son rather than her brother and although he is listed as Richard on the 1841 and the 1851 census there is no sign of him after these dates. It has crossed my mind that he may have changed his name, either his first name or surname. I have also just recently spotted on the1861 census that Edward and Hannah Jones have William Alfred Oliver - brother in law - living with them aged 20 which makes him born in 1841 the same as Richard and can't possibly be (even with the unreliable ages on the census) the William baptised in 1826.

Going back to Edwin - the puzzle here is that there seems to be an overlap in dates between Edwin and Harriet. He was listed on the1841 census as being 10. Harriet was baptised in 1831. I don't have a record of Edwin's baptism and I suppose he could have been born in 1830 if they rounded his age down on the census. Also I notice that Hannah had sons called Edwin and William

So I think what we are trying to establish is: Edwin later used the name Edward. Richard and William Alfred may have been the same person!?? and was later just called Alfred?

Yes - very complicated. Perhaps Shane has some more clues elsewhere on the tree.

Oh yes nearly forgot - Edward and Caroline have used names for four of their children which would tie in with the James and Margaret family - James and Margaret obviously and Mary Ann and Annie Selina ( Mary Ann and Selina were used by Mary Oliver for her daughters and Anne was Mary's sister)

Phew - that's all for now - Linda

jane · Senior Member

Going back to Edward Oliver who married Caroline Panting, the only suitable candidate on the 1841 census seems to be the 10 year old "Edwin" Oliver who was in Finstock with Margaret Oliver, who we know from other sources was the widow of James Oliver. The fact that he said when marrying that his father was James would seem to back up this theory. That means he may well be a brother of Augustin/Augustus et al. and so be another from the same family who all went to London. (What do you think, Linda?)

The only problem with this theory is Edward's "brother" Alfred who is shown as 38 on the 1881 census. That would mean that he was born around 1843, well after Margaret Oliver's husband James had died. Either there is another James Oliver with a son Edward born about 1831, or Alfred must be a half-brother or perhaps a nephew of Edward. I can't find him after the 1881 census, so wonder if he is the 39 year old Alfred Oliver whose death was registered in the Kensington district (which I think would have included Notting Hill) in 1882.

To add to the confusion, Mary Oliver (who was the daughter of James & Margaret) had a 9 year old "brother" Richard with her on the 1851 census. He has been mentioned elsewhere on this messageboard. He would be a very similar age to the elusive Alfred.

What a complicated family!!!

Jane

-- Edited by jane on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 05:12:53 PM

jane · Senior Member

Now for Mark & Sarah:

From the 1871 census, Mark Oliver was born in Stonesfield and his wife Sarah in Oxford St Giles. With Sarah's Oxford connection it seems likely that they are the Mark Oliver and Sarah Ward who married in the Oxford district in 1863.

Mark was shown as a mason's labourer on the 1871 census, when he and Sarah with 4 year old daughter Susan and 2 year old son Thomas P. were at 7 Carlisle Court, Lambeth.

Mark was dead by 1881; he is probably the Mark Oliver whose death was registered in the Lambeth district in 1877. This would fit with the age of his youngest known child, Arthur, who was 4 in 1881. Mark's widow is wrongly listed as Susan on the 1881 census (still in Carlisle Court), but is back to being Sarah again in 1891 (when she had moved to 49 Bird Street, Lambeth).

So far I've identified five children:

Susan, b.29 April and bapt. 12 May 1864, Lambeth St Mary (parents then of 10 Granby Place); baptised again in 1870 at Lambeth Holy Trinity, on the same day as her younger brother Thomas (see below); in 1891 she married Richard Tom Jarratt, a 31 year old widower, whose father was doorkeeper at the House of Commons. They were in Thornton Heath, Surrey in 1901 with three children (the eldest maybe from Richard's previous marriage?) and a Jarratt nephew. A 39 year old Susan Jarratt died in the Croydon district in 1906.
Thomas Philip, b.1868 in the Lambeth district and baptised 1870 at Lambeth Holy Trinity; his father was then described as a stone sawyer. As yet I have not traced him after the 1881 census, when he was with his widowed mother in Lambeth.
Frank, b. about 1872 (possible birth registration in the Lambeth district in Q3 1871); could be the 19 year old Private Frank Oliver (born Lambeth) who was in a military hospital in Hampshire on the 1891 census. Perhaps someone with access to Findmypast could see if they have any discharge papers for him? Not traced 1901 but if still in the army he might have been serving in the Boer War.
Sarah, b. about 1874, married William Henry Hill (a painter) in 1899. They were in Walworth in 1901 with 4 year old daughter Cecillia.
Arthur, b. about 1877; in 1891 he was a 'machine boy for printer' so is probably the Arthur Oliver, printer's labourer, in Southwark 1901 with wife Ellen and daughter Emily. I think they are the Arthur Oliver and Catherine Ellen Carter who had married in the (Southwark) St Saviour district in 1896. From London Parish Registers, Emily Catherine Ellen Oliver (daughter of Arthur, a printer's labourer, and Catherine Ellen) was bapt. at Southwark Christchurch in Aug. 1898 and another child, Arthur, was baptised in 1901.

NB that when Mark's daughter Sarah married in 1899, she said her father had been a monumental mason. So he may well have been making gravestones as well as, or instead of, working in the building trade.

Let's hope some of their descendants get Googling over the Christmas period and discover their Oxfordshire roots...

Jane

jane · Senior Member

I can now add a bit more to the story of Edward & Caroline Oliver:

Edward Oliver was born in Finstock in about 1831, to judge from census returns. It seems likely that he is the 20 year old Edward Oliver (Finstock-born) who was in prison in Oxford at the time of the 1851 census. An Edward Thornett was a fellow inmate. I've not yet found out what they'd done, but by December 1851 they were in trouble again, for helping themselves to one of the Duke of Marlborough's partridges. Unless they could come up with the £5 fine, they were to go to prison for 2 months. (This is from JOJ.) I guess he may well be the Edward Oliver who was sent to prison yet again in Nov. 1852, this time with a John Thornett, for 'assaulting two constables at Witney, in the execution of their duty').

He married Caroline Panting at Ramsden in 1856. According to the marriage register he was the son of James Oliver, a labourer. Two children who died in infancy are buried in Ramsden (Mary Ann, who lived only 14 days, b. and d. 1857; and Benjamin, who died Aug. 1859 aged 7 months). Edward & Caroline may then have moved briefly to London, for their next child, Rosetta, was born in Westminster in 1860. However, by the time of the 1861 census, parents with baby Rosetta were back in Ramsden. Edward Oliver is shown as a 'drainer' on the 1861 census (the OED says this usually meant 'one who constructs field drains'). Baby Benjamin Edward came along in 1862 (born in Finstock?) and was baptised the following January at Ramsden. By 1866 these Olivers were back in London, where children Annie Selina, James Stephen, Sarah Margaret and John Albert Oliver were born. To judge from the children's baptisms, the family moved quite frequently, but always in the Notting Hill area.

More about some of their children:

Rosetta Oliver (a.k.a. Rose Oliver) married James Wiggins in 1879. On the 1891 census she and several children were visiting her brother James.
Benjamin Edward Oliver married Caroline Victoria Lewis in 1880. They had at least six children, namely Rosetta, Charles, Florence, Sarah, and two Augustus Sydneys. It is tempting to suppose that a Benjamin Edward Oliver who died in infancy in 1879 may also have belonged to them. Though he usually seems to have been a labourer, he is shown as a photographer on the 1901 baptism of Augustus no.2. Benjamin's death was registered in the Brentford district in the first quarter of 1914, and Caroline's in the same district in the first quarter of 1927.
Annie Selina Oliver is possibly the Selina Annie Oliver who married one Harry Shears; they were in Cricklade, Wiltshire in 1901. (However, on that census she gave her birthplace as Tottenham Court Road, so she may be a completely different person.)
James Stephen Oliver married Ada Heasman (or Hearman?) and was in the Acton area in 1901. London Parish Registers on Ancestry has baptisms for four of their daughters (Mary Ann Elizabeth, Edith Agnes, 'Rosina' [probably error for Rosetta] Caroline and Ethel May Sarah).
Sarah Margaret Oliver is probably the one who died in the Brentford district in 1889

Well, had better stop there for now. More later on those other migrants to London, Mark & Sarah Oliver.

Jane

-- Edited by jane on Tuesday 21st of December 2010 04:29:22 PM

jane · Senior Member

Hello again Linda, and thanks for that first-hand account of West Oxfordshire plumbing (or lack of). It reminded me of a great film called Twenty Four Square Miles, which looked at rural life in Oxfordshire in the 1940s. Though based on the Hook Norton area, the way of life must have been very similar in 'our' area.

You can watch it online here. Altogether it lasts about 40 minutes, but the bits about housing begin about 19 minutes into the film, and there's a section about water supply at about 21 minutes (only the very newest houses had piped water). The whole thing's worth watching though: there are glimpses of rural industries, many of them already on the decline (for example, the wheelwright's work was then mostly only repair work, for new wheels were factory-made.)

Jane

Linda · Senior Member

Hello Jane

Re: Living conditions in 1951

My family home was a thatched cottage built in 1618. When my Grandparents moved there in 1933 there was no mains water just a well and the same applied to the neighbouring cottages. I'm not sure when mains water was eventually provided but even then we only had one tap. And this may surprise you even more - we only had an outside 'bucket' toilet until 1964! We had chamber pots in the bedroom - yes those china ones and the contents of these was put into a slop pail. Sorry, probably too much information. Sounds terrible now but it was just how things were done then. There was an extension on the back of the cottage which consisted of the kitchen (which we called the scullery) and a bathroom. There was a bath in the bathroom which had a plughole to let water out but no taps. The water was either heated in kettles or in the gas 'copper'. Everyone bathed in the same water! I was the youngest so I went first, then my sister, then my Mum and my Dad last. Sometimes we had a bath in a tin bath in front of the fire - freezing cold one side and roasting hot the other.

We did have the luxury of an electric light in our toilet and it was quite close to the house. The neighbouring cottages had to go to the bottom of the garden with a torch. It was not unusual to have to sweep the snow off the seat before we could sit down. Dad, of course, had the job of emptying the toilet and he had to dig a hole and bury it. He used to grow the most gorgeous chrysanthemums and everyone asked what kind of fertilizer he used - he always replied 'ah! that's my secret'

We also had 'bucket' toilets at the Long Hanborough infant school and the primary school at Church Hanborough and that was in the mid 1950's.

Well what can you expect in Long Hanborough!

Happy Christmas to everyone - Linda

jane · Senior Member

Hi Linda

London seemed to draw people in from all over the country, like a great magnet. Somewhere I have a map showing the main trends in migration between two censuses (1851 and 1861?), and the biggest fattest arrows are going to London. Other areas of rapid expansion included the South Wales coalfields and the industrial Midlands.

Now that census returns are searchable online so easily, it is possible to look at broad trends, e.g. looking for any Stonesfield-born people and seeing where they move to.

Today I am Ancestry-less so have to resort to the blunter tool of the FamilySearch 1881 census, but this still picks up some Oxfordshire Olivers who have made their way to the great metropolis.

Edward Oliver (49, bricklayer's labourer) was at 4 Royal Crescent Mews, London on the 1881 census. Both he and his wife Caroline had been born in Finstock, as had their married son Benjamin (19), but 15 year old daughter Annie had been born in Notting Hill, dating the family's move to the first half of the 1860s. Perhaps work opportunies were better there, for there would have been more building work going on than in rural West Oxfordshire. Edward's bachelor brother Alfred Oliver (38), also born Finstock, was part of the household too.

Earlier in the week I was looking at what happened to the various children of Robert & Susannah Oliver of Stonesfield. One of them was called Mark, and he may be the Mark Oliver who was a mason's labourer in Lambeth in 1871, with a wife Sarah and two small children. There's a possible marriage for them in 1863 in the Oxford district.

Besides thinking about why people moved this also raises the question of how. The coming of the railways would have certainly made travelling to London easier. I will have to find out how much the fares were, and how this compared with labourers' wages.

Re. living conditions back in Oxfordshire, I was surprised to learn that according to the 1951 census (yes, I do mean 1951, not 1851) Oxfordshire was one of the most primitive counties in England when it came to the proportion of households with running water, indoor toilets, etc. I will look out the statistics, which (along with the above-mentioned map) are lost in mountains of papers somewhere.

Jane

Linda · Senior Member

At least three of the children of James and Margaret Oliver moved to London in the mid to late 19th Century - Augustin, who we have been discussing recently, Fanny (Croxton) and Hannah (Jones). I assume they went to find work but what a contrast it must have been to go from rural Oxfordshire to London.

There must have been plenty of building work and, looking at some of the houses of that period in the Streatham area where Fanny and Hannah lived, perhaps the conditions were better than living in a cottage in a village. They would probably have had proper drainage and piped water. Conditions would not be so good if you fell on hard times and had to live in one of the tenement buildings.

Does anyone know of families from other branches who also moved to London at this time?

Bye - Linda