Yes, the certificate was from the GRO. I'm going to open a separate topic asking about certificates as it might be of interest to other members.
I'm not in some much of a panic about Mary now. There seems to be no other Mary about at that time and also your research agrees that Mary is the daughter of James and Margaret. When I look over my research there are so many pointers that she belongs to this family. Not least naming children after her Mother and siblings.
I like both of your ideas that Thomas may have been in the picture as either a caring Uncle or a type of step father. He's been put to one side at the moment as 'a mistake' . If he's not 'a mistake' I'm sure he will turn up again somewhere.
With regard to George Swinford: He was a stonemason from Filkins and so he may have some connection with the George Swinford you mention. He married Mary Ann Oliver and as far as I know they always lived in Stonesfield. I think there may still be descendants of this family in Stonesfield but I'm not sure. I do have a photograph of him. Would you like a copy for the website Shane?
I was pondering a similar sort of scenario whereby possibly Thomas, James brother, took on a bit of a fatherly/supporting type role to Mary and the children when James died in 1836 and Mary was just 13/14., through until Thomas died himself in 1854. If this were the case by 1854 Mary would have known Thomas in this sort of role for longer than her own father James and arguably through her more challenging and formative adolescent years and into adult life - perhaps she came to know and regard Thomas as a bit of father figure and somehow this was passed down to her children and onto her children’s spouses i.e. George ???
These types of if, buts and maybe conclusions are not easy to live with are they! Thanks,
Another scenario has occurred to me while I've been having a cup of tea....
If we're right about Mary being the daughter of James & Margaret, then her father died when she was still young. Her mother, Margaret, widowed at a fairly early age, may well have found herself a new man, even if there is no sign of another marriage. Indeed, this is one possible explanation for some of the younger Oliver children who were born long after James had died. What I am saying is that perhaps the Thomas who George Swinford puts down as Mary's father was in fact a sort of stepfather, though probably never married to Margaret. If Margaret and Thomas lived together, then George might just have assumed that they had tied the knot and that he was Mr Oliver! Of course this idea would be really difficult to prove, especially as there is no sign of Margaret having a man living with her on any censuses.
Alternatively George Swinford may have just taken a guess at Margaret's father's name, rather than admit he didn't know all the dark secrets in the Oliver family tree...
Did you get the death certificate from the GRO? If so it may be worth getting another copy from the local registrar in Oxford, in case any errors crept in when the information was being sent from Oxfordshire to the GRO. (The GRO records are one step further away from the original ones, and were all copied out by hand, so there were many opportunities for errors/omissions.) But it would be unusual for a James to turn into a Thomas (a much more common mutation is from 'Jno' for John to 'Tho' for Thomas, as J and T can be almost identical).
If the local certificate says the same thing (or if it's the one you've already got), I'd guess that George Swinford just got his facts wrong. The info on death certificates can be quite inacccurate if there wasn't anyone left alive who knew the dead person's family history.
(Is your George Swinford anything to do with the very long-lived George Swinford of Filkins, who wrote his reminiscences in the lovely book "Jubilee Boy"?)
The fact that you have no record of another Mary Oliver of about the same time is a relief. I'm sure the certificate is for the right Mary but it was her parents that worried me. I think George Swinford may have been caught out when asked who her father was and just said Thomas.
I have sent swift messages off to my 'researching cousins' to see what they make of it.
Umm, yes, I see the frustration, that’s not an at all helpful little find is it.
No silver bullet answers come to mind unfortunately, though I concur with all the probably’s and possibly’s that you've thought through.
I can confirm that in my own research I've definitely also captured Mary as the daughter of James and Margaret as you have, born 1822.
I can also add that Thomas (James brother) had 3 children with his wife Rachel, these were:
So no Mary. It's probably unlikely that Thomas and Rachel would have had a child in 1822 as Rachel would have been 56.
The most probably scenario, but impossible to validate, would seem that George Swinford simply got the details wrong, possibly got confused with James brother. Mary’s death was in 1894, James her father had died way back in 1836 when Mary was just 13 or 14. Perhaps she never spoke much of James to her children?, perhaps she was a bit ostracised from some parts of her family following the circumstances of her children’s births and never talked of her parents much, either way James died along time before George was on the family scene – only more wierd and wonderful possiblies to somehow support George’s error.
The other main option as you say is that you have the wrong Mary, though I have no other Mary Oliver’s born in the 1820’s that would fit that death record/age at death, and the fact that it’s George Swinford registering the death means almost certainly that it’s the right Mary surely.
The only other thing I can think of off the top of my head is whether one of Marys brothers married a Mary, who then became Mary Oliver, and somehow there was confusion with her fathers name i.e. Thomas is actual her fathers firstname and her Oliver is her married surname - if you follow. This is the only other way I can imagine George being involved with registering the death if it wasn't 'the' Mary. But then where is 'the' Marys death registration.
Sorry, not much help, one to sleep on I think...... Oh George ...... Shane
-- Edited by Shane Bywaters on Saturday 3rd of April 2010 10:38:56 PM
-- Edited by Shane Bywaters on Sunday 4th of April 2010 06:49:17 AM
I'm hoping that either Shane or Rene will be able to help me with this.
I have just received a copy of Mary Oliver's death certificate. This is Mary Oliver mother of Willliam Augustus.
All the details fit - died in Stonesfield 1894 , 74 years old (about right) informant George Swinford - son-in-law (this was Mary Ann's husband - Mary Ann was William Augustus sister)
BUT the spanner in the works is: under 'occupation' it says Gloveress (daughter of Thomas Oliver general labourer)
Either my research is wrong as I have her recorded as being the daughter of James and Margaret or George Swinford is wrong. Is it possible he didn't know who her father was and thought it might be Thomas? Or have I picked the wrong Mary?
James had a brother Thomas did he also have a daughter called Mary the two being of similar age? Or was there another Thomas Oliver on a different branch with a daughter Mary?
I'm totally confused now - can anyone help me out of my misery
