New member 'Linda' and William Augustus of Combe

jane · Senior Member

RE: New member 'Linda' and William Augustus of Combe

Linda · Senior Member

Hello Jane

Thanks for the link to the Barbara Dixons website on certificates, it's a very useful tool. I'll be bookmarking this for future reference.

With regard to James, he's always been there in the background as one of my G.G. grandmothers brothers who had died young and it wasn't until Irene mentioned the possibility of him being the James Oliver she had discovered working as a groom in Scotland that I started to wonder if I'd got the right one so I sent for the death certificate hoping it would prove either way. I'm glad I did because not only do I now know that I have the right James Oliver for my family but I also know much more about him and can visualise him more as a person than just a name in my family tree notes. Also his occupation as Railway Laborer is a change from the usual Agricultural Labs. I seem to have generations of Agricultural labs and gloveresses on both sides of my family tree.

Thanks for all your information about the typhus. Perhaps working on the railway he was with a group of men and this is how he caught it. I did check the newspapers of this date to see if any cases were reported locally but the only ones seemed to be army officers overseas. A sad story but an insight into life in those times.

Bye for now - Linda
PS: I've been to see the exhibition at the Witney Museum and it was well worth the visit. Shane's display of the Oliver family is fabulous.

jane · Senior Member

Hi Linda

You're right about the "4 weeks" being how long James had been ill. The "certified" meant that a doctor had written out a certificate noting the cause of death. See http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm for Barbara Dixon's useful tutorial on death certificates.

Typhus seems to have been more common in urban communities and took especially high tolls in the army. It is caused by a bacterium but spread from person to person by lice etc.

It is interesting that James took a month to die, for the sites I've looked at seem to agree that typhus usually ran its course in a fortnight, after which you either died or recovered. So perhaps it was some other fever that killed him? I don't think doctors' diagnostic tools were very advanced in the 1850s. (Not that it would have made any difference to poor James, for it would be nearly a century before antibiotics were widely available.)

Jane

Linda · Senior Member

Hello again Irene

I've now received the death certificate of the James Oliver who died aged 19 on 4th June 1855 and this confirms that he died in Finstock and that Margaret Oliver was present at the death. His occupation was Railway Laborer and the cause of death was Typhus Fever - 4 weeks certified. I'm not sure what 4 weeks certified means but assume it is something to do with how long the illness had lasted. I always feel quite sad when I see the death certificates and particularly this one as he was such a young man.

This means that the groom James Oliver living in Scotland wasn't connected to my James-Margaret Oliver branch. There is still the other brother to sort out - Richard - but this another puzzler.

Bye for now - Linda

Linda · Senior Member

Hello Irene

I've been pondering over this. There was a James Oliver of Finstock buried in June 1855 aged 19. I assumed that this was Mary's brother because the dates fit. I think to be sure I'll try and get a copy of his death certificate. With regard to the Scottish connection with Richard, this could be a possibility because there seems to be no trace of him after the 1851 census - so another trail to investigate.

Thanks again for you help.

Linda

rene oliver · Senior Member

Hi Linda,
Searched high and low for my notes and can only come up with something a chappie found for me. This was before I had access to Ancestry and this chap did a limited search for me.

James Oliver bn. abt. 1836 in England. Age on 1881 Census (45)
Residence - Bankside House, St. Mungo, Dumfriesshire.
Groom/domestic
Home of William O.B. Irving. He is shown as being `father` of James.

William O.B. Irving was bn. in England (Sunderland) and was a Surgeon (Royal College of Surgeons)

Also found in a Scottish Census form - the following

Recard (Richard) Oliver (20) bn. 1841 bn. England.
He was a boarder living in Edinburgh, Midlothian at 3 Grove Place.

Could be the Brothers - but I never searched any furtrher.

Regards, Irene

Linda · Senior Member

Hello Rene

Phew - everything seems to be happening at once. You mention the 1851 census and this has puzzled us for a long time. Richard is listed as her brother age 9 which means he would have been born 1842 but Oh! dear, if we've got the right James Oliver as their father, he died in 1835! Mmmmmm. We wonder whether he might be Mary's son and not her brother.

You also mention James as going to Scotland as a groom but I've got a note that he died in 1855 aged 19. Can you throw any more light on this?

It's 11.06 pm - I'm never going to sleep tonight with all this info zooming round in my head.

Bye for now - Linda

Linda · Senior Member

Wow! I am speechless.

Thanks for that Shane.

Ramsden - that definitely fits with the William Townsend I suspect is the culprit.

I've got to go and sit down with a strong cup of coffee now.

Bye for now - Linda

jane · Senior Member

Hi again everybody

Re. the Bampton East Petty Sessions, I don't think many of the court records have survived, unfortunately, so the newspaper reports may be all that there is. Oxfordshire Record Office does have some Petty Sessions material, but if I remember rightly the Bampton East stuff is mostly quite modern and some of it still closed to the public. Besides what's at ORO I know there are fantastic archives at the Thames Valley Police Museum (Sulhamstead). I know someone who is helping catalogue them (and who happens to be an expert on Oxfordshire criminal records). I will ask her advice.

Jane

P.S. I've started a new thread with the aforementioned tutorial on 'Jackson's Oxford Journal'.

P.P.S. Don't be scared of Kew. It is quite the most wonderful place and I would be happy to initiate you.

rene oliver · Senior Member

Hello All, this is indeed a very quick reply.

On 1851 Census - Mary was in Finstock looking after her two young brothers. James (15) who later went to Scotland as a Groom and Richard (9). So perhaps that is why the Wedding did not go ahead. Too obvious>?

Irene

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Hello Both,

What great genealogy chat going on here - marvellous stuff!

Re: 'a trip to Kew for the terrified' - I don't think that's such a bad idea at all, noted, leave it with me for now.

Just by way of a quick snippet, I did locate the below entry from the Jackson's Oxford Journal, Saturday, December 6, 1856 and whilst the entry itself doesn't give any new information it does at least illustrate that a charge was made and did go through the Petty Sessions so there may be more detail information down that route?

If my understanding is right these Petty Session papers are likley to be at the Oxfordshire Records Office? - easier than a terrifying trip to Kew (in an immediate sense at least!)

Then of course as Jane says, if he didn't pay for whatever reason, that may have led to further cases, newspaper entries, etc etc

maryoliver

Okay, that was all for the moment...

Thanks,
Shane

Linda · Senior Member

Hello Jane

Thanks for all the ideas and advice. It'll keep me busy for a while and hopefully I'll get nearer to discovering the elusive Mr. Townsend.

I'm very interested in the local newspapers online as this might also provide information about my other Oxfordshire ancesters and I look forward to your tutorial on this.

I've never been to Kew it sounds complicated. Dare I suggest - could Shane organize 'a trip to Kew for the terrified'

Bye for now - Linda

jane · Senior Member

Hi Linda and welcome to the gang!

It sounds like you've tried the most obvious sources of information on the identity of William Augustus's father. Here are a few thoughts on some more obscure things you might try.

I can't remember off the top of my head what records have survived for Chipping Norton workhouse. I suspect it is like Witney in that most of them have gone. Even if most of the interesting personal stuff has been destroyed, there will probably still be minutes of the Board of Guardians (at Oxfordshire Record Office). There are some real genealogical gems hidden among the administrative stuff in these records. Then at The National Archives, Kew, there will be correspondence between the Guardians and the Poor Law Commissioners. This is filed by Poor Law Union and then in date order, in MH 12. There's all sorts of fascinating material here, though I have to admit quite a small chance of finding a given person. Some of the things I've found for Witney are lists of pauper lunatics in the district, and how they were being cared for, applications for maintenance of deaf and dumb children, details of earnings of individual families, and much more.

There's also the possiblity that the father was taken to court because he wasn't paying maintenance. Some such cases got reported in local newspapers. For the 1850s that would probably be 'Jackson's Oxford Journal' (now searchable online for 1800-1900 if you have an Oxfordshire Library ticket! I will post a tutorial later) or maybe the 'Oxford Chronicle'.

Then there's the question of why the marriage didn't take place. Was some lawful impediment discovered? The most obvious might be that William Townsend could have had a wife already. Or did something happen to him to prevent the marriage? Again newspapers might give a clue. As you've already discovered, though, there are a lot of William Townsends around. It might just be worth checking to see what parish papers have survived for Charlbury (other than the parish registers, I mean) in case there's anything else related to banns at that time.

All too often I'm afraid that fathers of illegitimate children remain elusive, but perhaps there is a little bit of paper somewhere that will tell you the answer!

Hope this gives you some new avenues for research

Jane

Linda · Senior Member

Thanks for the introduction Shane. You must have been sending Oliver thought waves through to me about William Augustus because I was busy on the family history on my fathers side when out of the blue I typed in Olivers of Finstock and up came your website.

William Augustus/Augustus William born 30 April 1855 in Chipping Norton workhouse.

Registered and bapt. as Augustus he appears to have used Willliam Augustus on some occasions and Augustus William on others. In our family research we always refer to him as William A.

His mother was Mary Oliver bapt. in August 1822 daughter of James and Margaret Oliver of Finstock.

The puzzle we have is: who was William A's father?

Mary Oliver never married. Although were banns read and recorded in the Charlbury Parish Records for Fiinstock on 23, 30 June, 7 July 1850 for Mary Oliver and William Townsend no marriage appears to have followed.

At this time it would have been considered a bad omen for banns to be read and the marriage not to have taken place and it would not have been approved of by the church.

Five years later William A. is born. No fathers name on his birth certificate but this was generally the case with children born out of wedlock. They sometimes got round this by using the fathers surname as part of the child's christian name.

However, on William A's marriage certificate he states his fathers name as William Townsend deceased and he uses William as his name.

We know that Mary had at least two other children. Maryann Margaret born 12 December 1857 also in Chipping Norton workhouse and Maria born October 1859 in Ramsden. No father is mentioned on their birth certificates or on their marriage certificates.

More clues could be obtained from the 1861 and 1871 census but the only one I can trace on these is Maryann on the 1861 for Ramsden listed as niece in the household of Thomas and Fanny Croxton (the sister of Mary). Some of the 1861 and 1871 census pages are missing so it is possible they are on these missing pages.

There are lots of William Townsends in the area and it could be any one of them.
I do have one that seems to fit it but I have no definite connection.

Anyone know anything about this or have any ideas where else to look?

Bye for now - Linda

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Hi All and welcome Linda to the website and message board - thanks for joining.

Literally just a couple of days ago a few of us were pondering William Augustus and his family so its great to have made this connection and hopefully over the coming weeks and months we can discover more about the family branch and hopefully share, review and maybe even help get to the bottom of some of those outstanding puzzles!

Look forward to talking more about William Augustus the skilled Thatcher and family!

Speak soon,
Shane

Linda wrote:

Another new member

Hello, I'm another new member linked to the Oliver's of Finstock, Stonesfield and Combe. My maternal Grandmother was Elizabeth Oliver, daughter of William Augustus and Elizabeth Oliver.

I live in Oxfordshire and have been researching my family history for about nine years. I have three cousins also researching the Oliver's, one lives in Coventry, one in Leicester and one in Australia. I have passed details of this website to them. Unfortunately, not all of them have computers at home but I hope they will be able see the website somewhere. We share our information and between us have pieced together quite a lot of our Oliver family history. We do have a few mysteries still to solve and I will cover these in separate postings.

Alongside family history I am also interested in family traits, dialects and local words and phrases, coincidences and general local history. I am hoping that Shane will allow discussions on these topics even though they are not strickly Oliver related.

Sorry, I do ramble on a bit!

Great to have found this website.

Bye for now - Linda