Joshua(1797), Solomon (1802) and James (1803) - Mysteries????

Liz S · Newbie

RE: Joshua(1797), Solomon (1802) and James (1803) - Mysteries????

jane · Senior Member

Hi Liz

This Solomon/Maria/Sophia stuff is proving a really hard nut to crack, isn't it?

I am going to try to pull some of the different comments in this thread together, to see where the various theories clash and try to see whether we can rule anything in or out.

One of the few certainties seems to be that Prudence was the daughter of Solomon and Maria . . . but everything gets very complicated after that!

I had hoped that there might be birth registrations of some of the younger children (those born after civil registration was introduced in July 1837), as their birth certificates should give mother's maiden name, but no such luck: it seems that these births went unregistered. That doesn't imply that there was anything dodgy about the children's parentage: birth registration took quite a long time to catch on and there was no penalty in those early days for failing to register a birth.

It isn't unusual, of course, for a married man to father a child with another woman, but I find it hard to believe that Solomon would do that several times without Maria leaving him. Yet they are still together on the 1851 census. And we know (see earlier posting in this thread) that Solomon's ex-girlfriend Sophia Green(a)way had married again after her husband James Woodward died. I double-checked this in the Hanborough parish register transcripts today:

Sophia Woodward, full age, widow, daughter of John Greenaway, labourer, married John Thornton, full age, widower, labourer, son of William Thornton, labourer, on 5 August 1838 at Hanborough. He signed, she made her mark. The witnesses were Joseph Hopcroft (x) and Caroline Greenaway (x).

Sophia must have become pregnant soon after this, for a son Mark Thornton was baptised at Hanboro' on 28 July 1839. Sadly he was buried just a few days later, on 7 August 1839.

Even if Mark Thornton was a premature baby, I can't see how Sophia could also have been the mother of Spencer Oliver, who was baptised early in 1839 (in February?), probably as in infant since he is only 2 on the 1841 census which was taken in June. Even if she was the mother of Solomon's younger children, they ought then to have been baptised with her name (either Woodward or Thornton depending on the date).

It is possible that there was another Sophia who was the mother of Solomon's children and who we have yet to trace. But given that Solomon is still with Maria in 1841 and 1851 it seems quite unlikely that he was having a long-term affair with someone else.

That leaves the possibility that Maria Butcher was the mother of all Solomon's children; if this is true we have to explain why the Stonesfield baptisms record children of Solomon and Sophia: was Maria known as Sophia? Or was she perhaps known as 'Ria' or something that might sound like Sophia especially in a broad West Oxfordshire accent? Perhaps the most likely explanation is that the vicar might have just made rough notes on bits of paper and written the proper baptism register up retrospectively, perhaps assuming wrongly that Solomon had married the woman whose banns had been called earlier.

Well, my head is aching now and the whole thing seems just as messy as before, so I will leave it for now and see what everyone thinks of these musings. I think the most likely answer is that we will never know for sure who was the mother of Solomon's younger children!

P.S. I hope, Liz, that you don't mind me suggesting alternatives to your version of the family history: it is very cheeky of me, especially as I am not an Oliver at all so am completely gate-crashing on this forum.

Liz S · Newbie

Hi Shane and everyone who has recently left posts about Solomon Oliver. Firstly well done once again to Shane for an excellent website. Secondly, apologies for not getting in touch before but Shane's last email prompted me to catch up on what's been happening on the message boards. I am descended from Prudence daughter of Solomon and Maria.
For what it's worth, this is my take on the Solomon/Maria/Sophia saga.

Sophiah Greenway – Solomon Oliver – Maria Butcher

Sophia Greenway daughter of John Greenway was born in Hanborough about 1811. In 1827 Banns were called in Stonesfield for the marriage of Solomon Oliver and Sophia Greenway, however the marriage never took place. We can assume that this was due to Solomon’s subsequent trial at Oxford Assizes, where he was found guilty of stealing 4 turkeys, and sentenced to be transported to Bermuda for 7 years.

In October 1832, Sophia Greenway married James Woodward in Hanborough. James must have been 72 or 73 at the time, as he died and was buried in Hanborough on 23^rd January 1833 age 73.

Meanwhile Solomon presumably agreed to marry Maria as the marriage of Solomon Oliver and Maria Butcher took place in Hanborough on 16^th September 1833.

Solomon and Maria had a daughter;

Prudence (0057a)

in 1834.

Whether Maria was able to have further children is not known, however Solomon had further children with Sophiah.

Half-brothers and sisters

to Prudence therefore were;

Thomas

born 1837,

Spencer

born 1839,

Albert

born 1841/2, Albert married Hannah/Ann and had 6 children;

Annie, Ernest, Ada, Lily, Beatrice and Miriam

Ann wife of Albert was buried 13^th April 1913.Albert was buried 17^th April 1917.

Urban

baptised 5^th May 1844 and

Maria

1847/48.

Betty · Member

To One and AllI have recently joined the "Oliver Family History" and these discussions on the mystery of Solomon etc. is quite fascinating and thank you every one concerned. The following details about John Oliver and Sarah 'Mary Ann' Painton are from Bernard Slatter (a researcher of Stonesfield) who I discovered when I was a member of Oxfordshire Family History Society a few years back. (By the way Shane did you ever contact Bernard?)"Stonesfield registers

– baptisms:-
7.1.1781 Martha dau John slatedigger & Sarah
20.6.1784 Jesse son John lab & Mary
12.12.1790 Caleb son John lab & Sarah
2.3.1796 John son John lab & Sarah
21.5.1797 Joshua son John
15.8.1802 Solomon son John & Ann

Jesse was recorded at baptism as the son of John and Mary Oliver, it seems likely that his mother was Sarah (formerly Painton). Sarah was baptised at Stonesfield 26.8.1750 the daughter of John and Catherine. John Oliver was baptised at Stonesfield 25.8.1751 the son of William & Ann. John and Sarah married at Stonesfield 25.12.1779. The witnesses were James Oliver, probably John's younger brother and William Hounslow. The 1801 Stonesfield census recorded John Oliver as a labourer with 5 males and 2 females in his household. Judging from the above baptismal record these could well have been John & Sarah, plus Martha, Jesse, Caleb, John and Joshua. The fact that Mary was shown as Jesse's mother and Ann as Solomon's may be due to transcription errors, slackness on the part of the parish clerk in making up the register or to Sarah being known by alternative names, perhaps she was Sarah Mary Ann.

There is no record of a John Oliver marrying a Mary at an appropriate time in the OFHS Marriage Index, nor are any other children of John and Mary Oliver shown in the Stonesfield baptismal register.

At the 1811 Stonesfield Census John Oliver was recorded as occupied in trade (slate industry) with 5 males and l female in his household. Since his daughter Martha was buried at Stonesfield 1.4.1803 this evidence continues to be consistent with the above interpretation.

John Oliver was buried at Stonesfield 14.2.1821 aged 68 so by the time of the 1821 census (28th May) his widow was recorded as the Household Head. Her occupation was shown as "other" ie not agriculture or trade and there were 1 male and 1 female in her household. The male was probably her son Caleb.

In the 1831 Stonesfield census Sarah Oliver's household was recorded Oliver Sarah widow, Caleb lab, Hannah gloveress and David. The identities of the above Hannah and David are unclear. There is no evidence to suggest that they were the wife and son of Caleb.

Sarah Oliver was buried at Stonesfield 27.10.1839 her age 'supposed 90'. At the 1841 Stonesfield census Caleb was recorded as a slatemaker living alone. By 1851 he was recorded an unmarried lodger in the household of John May****."

The following is from me about Maria Butcher
1841, 1851 Census living in Stonesfield, Oxon, Gloveress. Her name is shown as Maria. Oddly the children's baptisms have Sophia as mother in 1841-1847? The last child born 1847 is named Maria!! Another strange occurence is that Solomon the father was to have married Sophia Greenway in 1827 when Banns were recorded in Hanborough. When he married Maria Butcher in 1833 he is recorded as bachelor. (I am thinking that perhaps the Reverend in Stonesfield had remembered the calling of Banns in 1827 and had mistakenly confused Sophia with Maria). In 1831 John Greenaway (Sophia's brother) married Patience Butcher the sister of Maria Butcher. (I guess there were no hard feelings.)Three of Maria's children died, Thomas was only 3 months, Spencer was six years and Maria was 11 years. Albert and Herbert (Urban) did however marry and have children.

1861 Census NOT FOUND - Searched Internet Ancestry.com April 2005

Herbert?urban is my Great Grandfater.

The following is from my Family History notes about Herbert/Urban.

That still left me with the mystery of Herbert and it was not solved so easily – I wrote to the Registrar on this subject as well but he was not traced. It transpired that he was never registered but I subsequently found his baptism when I visited Oxford. Registration had not come in until 1837 and his eldest sister was born in 1834 so this is probably the reason that none of the children were officially registered.

When I visited Oxford with my husband Arthur in October 1944 I still had no idea of the area where Herbert may have been born. Fortunately for me the Oxfordshire Family History Society had transcribed the Census Returns for 1851 but I cannot remember in what form. I recall looking at the Surname Index for Oxford Prison and there was an entry for Edward OLIVER born in FINSTOCK I drew a blank in this village but noticed other Olivers born in FAWLER, LIDSTONE, ESDSTONE and eventually STONESFIELD where I found Solomon's family.

Even then it was not straightforward – I found a family that suited me very well the father's name was Solomon, a slatemaker (which matched the particulars on Herbert's marriage certificate). But the family consisted of wife Maria, and children, Prudence born 1834, Spencer born 1839, Albert born 1841, Urban born 1844 and Maria born 1847. Not a Herbert in sight, but I thought, could the registrar have mis-spelt Herbert's name and he was either Albert or Urban? I plumped for Urban as the age also fitted and on talking to a local Museum Attendant found that it was a colloquial Christian Name. I also eventually traced down Albert as marrying Anna.

Hope you find the above of some interest. Also on Herbert's marriage certificate he made his X so presumably he could not read or write. Even if he said his name was Urban it could have been mistaken for Herbert.

I will look through my notes in case I have anything else relevant to this discussion.

Thank you again - I now have some more information to add to my Family History Notes.

Regards from Betty Shillingford

jane · Senior Member

I have been looking into what happened to Sophia Greenway, who might well have married Solomon Oliver if it hadn't been for that incident with the turkeys. As Shane has discovered from parish registers, Sophia married James Woodward in 1832, some 5 years after the banns had been called for her marriage to Solomon Oliver. James & Sophia Woodward had a son James, baptised 1835 in Hanborough. He is probably the 4 month old James Woodward buried at Hanborough the same year. Three years later a 29 year old James Woodward was buried at Hanborough. Though there are lots of Woodwards in Hanborough, it seems likely this was Sophia's husband: certainly she was a widow by August 1838 for she married again, this time to widower John Thornton. They had a son Mark Thornton, baptised in 1839. Like his half-brother he also died in infancy.

John Thornton & Sophia are in Hanborough on the 1851 and 1861 censuses. On the former there are two children with them, aged 18 and 16 so I presume from John's first marriage. They were next door to elderly widower John Greenaway (pauper and ag lab) who I guess is Sophia's father.

Unless Sophia was managing to have children by Solomon in between her legitimate children, I think she cannot be the Sophia who is named in the Stonesfield baptism registers as the mother of Solomon's children. The 1851 census shows Maria still alive and well (unless he has married another different Maria after having children by some mystery Sophia). The most likely explanation is that his wife was sometimes called Maria and sometimes Sophia. Or perhaps one or both of them had a speech impediment or a very broad accent which made it difficult to distinguish the names Maria and Sophia?!? (Clutching at straws now.)

What would clarify things would be if we were to get hold of birth certificates for some of the younger children of Solomon and Maria/Sophia, i.e. those born after the introduction of civil registration, for that should give mother's maiden name and so (in theory) be more conclusive than the baptisms. This will only work if they did register the children's births, of course . . .

P.S. what surprises me is that (if I've interpreted the hulk registers correctly) Solomon was only pardoned in August 1833, yet was getting married in September 1833. Not exactly time for a long romance, unless he had known Maria before he left!

jane · Senior Member

Joshua & Solomon on the prison hulk(s)
From what Ancestry calls an 'index' for the 'Captivity' prison hulk (TNA, HO 9/8, folio 156):

Name	Page	Gaoler's Report
Oliver Joshua	118	Loose & disorderly
Oliver Solmn	118	the same

(The "Gaoler's Report" is I presume info passed from the gaoler at Oxford when the convicts were sent to the prison hulk.)

This seems to contradict what the newspaper clipping shown in an earlier posting states, i.e. that Joshua & Solomon were taken from Oxford gaol to the 'Leviathan' hulk. There is no reference in the Ancestry index to Joshua & Solomon being on the 'Leviathan', but I note that there are no entries at all for the 'Leviathan' in 1827/8 on Ancestry. I think we will need to look page-by-page at the scanned images, to check the name of the hulk, since several hulk registers are bound into one volume. Perhaps they are mis-indexed on Ancestry? Or JOJ could have been wrong about the 'Leviathan'? Or Joshua & Solomon were on both hulks, but the 'Leviathan' registers aren't on Ancestry for some reason?

What happened next?
Also now online, from TNA HO 9/8 folios 237-8, is a hulk register again shown by Ancestry as being for the 'Captivity'. The handwritten number on this page (118) corresponds to the one given in the index mentioned above.

No. on S.B.	Name	Age	Offence	When & where Convicted	Sentence	How disposed of
7952	James Hull	32	[see note*]	6 March 1827 Oxford	7 yrs	NSW 27 Feby 1828 Phoenix
7953	Joshua Oliver	28	Stealing poultry	"	"	Bermuda 9 Decr 1828 pr Weymouth
7954	Solomon Oliver	23	"	"	"	"
7955	William Barrett	19	"	"	"	"

*possibly convicted along with the next three, or else with the previous two (position of bracket is unclear).
'pr Weymouth' in last column evidently means 'per [by the] Weymouth'; this seems to be a reference to a ship called the Weymouth, not to the place Weymouth.

From this register it looks as if Joshua & Solomon Oliver, together with William Barrett, were all shipped off to Bermuda in December 1828. Some others from the same pages of the hulk register were also shown as being sent to Bermuda, but others were going to Australia. Some never left the hulks, either dying there or being pardoned before leaving.

A hitch in the journey plan
Shipping news (reported in various newspapers) shows that HMS 'Weymouth' sailed for Bermuda on 14 December 1828, from Portsmouth. But it didn't get very far: on 16 December 1828 it came into Plymouth, 'being unable to proceed owing to contrary winds'. It made at least one more unsuccessful attempt to leave, and was still in port in England in early January 1829.

Eventually the 'Weymouth' did arrive in Bermuda: this I discovered thanks to Jill Chambers (who has been researching the Swing riots for many years). Jill now has a website which includes some useful info on convicts in Bermuda. Here it states that HMS Weymouth arrived in Bermuda on 28 Feb 1829, with 300 convicts on board.

I don't know if there is a list of those on board: perhaps Jill would be able to answer that question?

Now the big question: did Solomon Oliver ever go to Bermuda?
Solomon Oliver appears in the records of the 'Captivity' one more time than Joshua. This time it is in document ref. HO 9/3, folio 21.

No.	Name	Age	Crime	Where & When Convd	Sentence	How disposed of
1921	Soln Oliver	28	G. Larceny	Oxford 6 March 1827	7	" ?? Aug "

The entries in the last column are very faint, but I think the first ditto mark corresponds to a "Pard" [Pardoned] further up the page, and the last ditto mark to the year (1833). The first part of the date is illegible. Further up the same page is Solomon's partner in crime, William Barrett, who is shown as having been pardoned on 6 August 1833. I cannot see Joshua on the same page. Some of the other people also apparently put on that Bermuda voyage in Dec. 1828 also appear in this list of 1833 pardons.

Unless a definitive passenger list for the 'Weymouth' turns up, I don't know how we can tell whether Solomon & co. served their time in Bermuda, or whether for some reason they never went, and just spent six years on the 'Captivity' hulk near Portsmouth. The mystery remains unsolved. . . .

Linda · Senior Member

Fascinating trail and brilliant detective work Shane. I've also spied a name I recognise - Sophia Whitley, a witness to the wedding of Sophia Greenaway and James Woodward. Sophia Whitley was Aunt to my Gt. Grandmother Elizabeth Whitley (who married William Augustus Oliver). Sophia and Elizabeth's father, Thomas, were brother and sister.

Bye for now - Linda

jane · Senior Member

"Hola !" from the faraway island of La Gomera

I´ve very briefly managed to get online here. How busy you´ve all been while I´ve been away!

I´m a bit confused about whether Joshua & Solomon actually got to Bermuda. It looks like they were on two different prison hulks (the Captivity and the Leviathan) but there´s also the reference to the Weymouth, which appears to be the transport ship that was meant to take them out to Bermuda. There are some hulk registers on Ancestry now, so perhaps we could pick up some more clues from there. I´ve no idea what the "C" Class of dispersal means but will ask Carol (author of that wonderful series of books, "Banished!") next time I see her.

No access to Ancestry here (I am having withdrawal symptoms) but the sunshine makes up for it!!!

Back to England very soon unfortunately :(

Jane

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Parents? - Joshua(1797), Solomon (1802) and James (1803)

rene oliver · Senior Member

Hi Jane, I see you are still on the Soloman trail. To get a good nights sleep I have had to give the Olivers a rest. For change of name I am tackling my husbands Grandfather. He is even more complicated. One photo - war medals for Afghanistan etc. - Members of the Victorian Wars Forum said medals look as though they have been touched up and could be fake. He looks too old to be in the uniform shown. This could be a long job too. I keep check on you every day though.

Irene

jane · Senior Member

Hello again all

I have been musing about the parentage of Solomon & Joshua. From the later baptism of James I guess we can say that the elusive Jonathan Oliver had probably married somebody by then, so he may well be the "John" with wife Ann who is recorded as the father of Solomon.

One possible reason why no marriage has been found for Jonathan is that his wife may have been from Combe. Some of the parish registers for Combe were lost in a fire and despite efforts to reconstruct registers from other sources (such as bishops' transcripts, and banns records of nearby parishes) there are still gaps. One of these is in the marriages of the 1790s which is just when we'd expect Jonathan to be getting married, unfortunately.

Remember too that during the 1790s and early 1800s we were at war and quite a lot of young men were away from home in the army or navy. So another possibility is that Jonathan found himself a wife while he was outside of Oxfordshire ... or maybe even outside of England. The words needle and haystack come to mind...

The lack of a burial for Ann Oliver might be explained if she remarried: perhaps someone with access to the OFHS marriage index could check to see if there are any likely Ann Olivers there. An alternative explanation is that Ann didn't exist at all, and is an error for Sarah (as Shane has already suggested). Although Sarah would have been getting on a bit in reproductive terms when Solomon was born she may not have been quite as old as the later burial register entry suggests: I see it says "supposed 90" for her age when she died. This is probably just a guess on behalf of the parish clerk or her relatives, so may be only a very rough age.

Does anyone know if the records of the overseers of the poor survive for Stonesfield? If they do they might just hold the answers.

Jane

rene oliver · Senior Member

Hi Shane, you seem to be covering an awful lot of ground just recently. Have you got an aeroplane?

I will study your remarks regarding Soloman when I am not feeling so guilty about neglecting the house and garden. I have found the bottom of the fishpond and now starts the big srcape down and clean up ready for re-sealing. I must say green preservative for the shed (my next big job) seems a lot more pleasurable than thick,smelly black sludge from the pond.

Now is it to be pressure washer or PC?

Sorry - pressure washer won.

Soloman will not go anywhere will he?

Regards, Irene

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Hi Irene,

Above I mentioned that there are two births that don't fit well with everything else going on around, well there are actually three:

Joshua Oliver, 1797, May 21, s. John (no mothers name)
Solomon Oliver, 1802, Aug 15, s. John and Ann
and
James Oliver, 1803, Jul 24, s. Jonathan (no mothers name)

We mentioned earlier about Jonathan b.1770 (who I have no evidence of marrying) possibly being the parent of one of more these three, James' baptism actually records the fathers names a Jonathan rather than John.

I said I would have a look at the original baptism parish register for Solomon, I have now and the transcripts are all correct, Solomon entry reads:

Solomon Son of John Oliver & Ann his wife

So, who is Ann - is this an error and it should be Sarah? is John actually Jonathan and he was married to Ann but not is Oxfordshire?

I also had a look at Solomon's marriage records in the original registers for Hanborough, banns and marriage, no mention of a father, deceased or otherwise.

Below is Joshua's baptism also:

No mention of a mother here.

So, no new ground breaking news I'm afraid, still a bit of a mystery - we plod on!

Thanks,
Shane

-- Edited by Shane Bywaters on Friday 1st of May 2009 04:10:38 PM

Shane Bywaters · Guru

Joshua(1797), Solomon (1802) and James (1803) - Mysteries????